High Hopes For Healing: Cannabis, Cancer, and Education with Jay Jay O’Brien

Margaret 00:00:04 Welcome friends to episode 254. And today I sit down with JJ O'Brien. I'm your host, Margaret, a certified Ganjier and TCI certified Cannabis educator, and I believe your kitchen is the best dispensary that you'll ever have. Welcome to Bite Me, the show about edibles. Today's guest is someone I've been wanting to talk to for a while. In 2019, JJ O'Brien was given six months to a year to live. But she chose a different plan. Now she's a certified medical cannabis educator, executive director of education, and the author of a book that might change how you think about this plant. This is a conversation that I think is going to stick with you. So, friends, let's get into this conversation with JJ O'Brien, author of High Hopes for healing. And I'm really.

Margaret 00:01:02 Excited today to be joined by JJ O'Brien. And you recently wrote a book I've known you for a little bit. I think we met first at Camp Cana of all places. And you recently read a book that I was really interested in for reasons that we'll get into later, but it's called High Hopes for healing.

Margaret 00:01:21 Yeah. Stigma free education on thriving through cancer with cannabis. And so before we get into this conversation today, JJ, I was just hoping that you could introduce yourself to the listeners of Bite Me and tell us a little bit about your background for sure.

Jay Jay O'Brien 00:01:34 Well, thank you so much for having me. I'm so excited to be here to and have this conversation with you today. My name is JJ O'Brien and I currently reside in Cambridge, Ontario, Canada, and I'm a certified medical cannabis educator and the Executive Director of Education, which is a cannabis education nonprofit here in Canada that's dedicated to providing the highest standard of responsible cannabis education. And we are a member based organization that supports patients and caregivers, and we're also an association of certified cannabis educators, and we support other coaches and educators in the cannabis space. So we're always offering continued education, a newsletter, community forum, lots of activities and things to do. And I got into all of this because I got a cancer diagnosis in November of 2019, and I was offered six months to a year to live, which wasn't really a plan that I was okay with.

Jay Jay O'Brien 00:02:31 So I went searching for an alternative to that, and I rekindled this relationship with cannabis that I had a relationship my whole life with. But I really didn't understand cannabis as a medicine until I found myself in this situation and trying to navigate all that I was learning, you know, about this plant was really difficult in the beginning. So that's what really got me into learning about cannabis and then becoming certified and then joining education and then eventually writing this book.

Margaret 00:03:04 That's amazing. So thank you for sharing all of that, and I'll be sure to link to a lot of the things you talked about in the show notes. So people don't have to worry about writing things down as they listen. But I would imagine getting a cancer diagnosis is super scary for anybody, which is one of the reasons why I wanted to have you on today, because my father was also recently diagnosed with cancer. And when you hear that C-word people, I mean, it's it's really scary. And it also feels like these days cancer diagnosis is are becoming more common.

Margaret 00:03:34 Like you just hear about it more. And maybe that's one reason is because detecting it is better, or it's easier to do now than it used to be, which I guess is a good thing. But for yourself, what was the specific moment that you decided cannabis wasn't just helping you survive cancer treatment, but something that you actually needed to write a book about?

Jay Jay O'Brien 00:03:54 Yeah. Well, I mean, So I first learned about like, cannabis as a medicine through the documentary Weed the People. And when I saw that documentary, for me it was light bulbs and fireworks and all of the things I just knew in that moment like, this is for me. This is what I need to be doing. And then I, I got my hands on some of the medicine and tried my first dose. And it was honestly after that very first dose that again, I was like, okay, yes, this this is it. and oddly enough, when I took that first dose as well, I took a little bit too much because I thought that, you know, I made the classic rookie mistake because I had so much experience with cannabis.

Jay Jay O'Brien 00:04:39 And I thought, oh, here we go. I took the medicine, didn't feel anything, and then a couple hours later, took a little bit more of the medicine. And then a few hours later, I felt it, and I felt it a little bit too much, and it was an issue, but I knew I was going to get through it, and I did. And but what was so remarkable about this experience for me is that I had so much pain from all the metastasis in my bones, and when I woke up the next morning, I had no more pain, and it was like it had just left and it felt like it was gone forever. So. And it was gone forever, because I've never experienced that level of pain ever again. So after that very first experience with trying it, I was 100% sold. That was it for me. And then it was just through the the journey afterwards of trying to learn how to do it properly, how to use it properly, and then how to make it for myself.

Jay Jay O'Brien 00:05:37 that's where, you know, I started like, hitting so many roadblocks and, you know, like trying to find information on social media and places like that is really difficult when you're already, you know, going through it with a cancer diagnosis. And there's so much overwhelm in all of this. So essentially I just wanted to make the journey easier for other people, because it was one I had to navigate completely on my own.

Margaret 00:06:01 Yeah, and that would be also, like you said, that you're probably so overwhelmed with just everything that's going on and trying to find like, relevant factual information and places like social media is, like you said, difficult at the best of times. Yeah, yeah. And it's interesting that you mentioned as well that as an experienced cannabis user, you still managed to.

Jay Jay O'Brien 00:06:21 Make that rookie mistake.

Margaret 00:06:23 Make the rookie mistake, which is a nice reminder that, like, these types of things that happen in our lives are an invitation for us to revisit our cannabis use as well.

Margaret 00:06:32 So I'm glad that you brought that up. But is there any one thing that you really wish that people knew about using cannabis as a cancer patient?

Jay Jay O'Brien 00:06:41 Well, honestly.

Jay Jay O'Brien 00:06:42 I just wish that people would come to it first. I wish it would be considered.

Jay Jay O'Brien 00:06:46 More of a first line treatment than a kind of last ditch effort, you know? And then I would love for patients to know that they have an endocannabinoid system, and I would love them to know how you know. Balancing that can really support the journey and and help their healing whatever treatment methods they decide and choose to do. But you know, like you talked about the statistics and they are getting worse and worse. And it's one and two men, 1 in 3 women at this point, which is crazy. And those odds are only getting worse. And we're getting to the point where it's a 5050 shot that everybody's going to have to deal with this at some point in their lives. So this is why it's really, really important for us as well, to be informed and to know what our options are.

Jay Jay O'Brien 00:07:29 Because in my view, what the Western medicine has been doing is not really working because we're not any better off, you know, like maybe, you know, progression free survival times. But, you know, we're not eradicating ourselves of this. We're not learning about prevention. We're not. I just don't feel like we're going about it the same way. After billions and billions of dollars in research, like, why are we still poisoning people and burning people and, you know, doing all of these things when we know there are so many other benign options up there, less harmful, less. You know what I mean? There's so many even beyond cannabis.

Margaret 00:08:08 Right? One thing that you kind of touched on a little bit is with the like, dealing with oncologists and doctors and the medical system and because because cannabis is not seen as a first line of treatment when you're dealing with cancer. I would imagine that if you catch it early, like you detect cancer early, that first line, cannabis can be incredibly effective, which might mean you don't have to do some of these more invasive treatments.

Margaret 00:08:32 But that probably comes down to stigma. And you mentioned stigma right in the title of your book. And where do you think the most stubborn stigma comes from? Is it from doctors or is it from partners? Is it. Yeah. The doctors, it's.

Jay Jay O'Brien 00:08:46 Definitely doctors where I have, I think, faced it the most. And it's it's unfortunate because, you know, I've tried to talk to my oncologists about it. I've tried to talk to my doctors about it, and they just kind of ignore me. They just kind of act like it does. It's like Voldemort. It's like the word you do not say and nobody acknowledges its existence. And that just boggles my mind as well, because I had so much success with this plant before anything else was offered to me by the medical community whatsoever. And I if I was a medical professional, I would be absolutely curious and interested to know what this person is doing that is helping to reverse the disease in their body, but they do not. And I in the beginning, I went to many of my oncologists appointment with my doctor, Bonnie Goldstein's cannabis medicine book, with me, and I would always carry it with the title Facing out and I would, you know, walk through the hospital with it and then put it down on the desk again, facing out so that the doctor would see it to try to spark conversation.

Jay Jay O'Brien 00:09:51 And it it it never happened until just recently actually. Where and on the my current oncologist because I've gone through many over the years actually asked me for my card because she was asking me about medical cards for patients and things like that. And then I was like, whoa, oh my goodness. I never, ever thought that that would happen. So but so there's hope. I guess there's hope.

Margaret 00:10:18 Yeah. I do find things are changing very slowly though, for sure. But the fact that your oncologist was asking for your card, like maybe that's showing a move of the needle a little bit, but, you know, from when you first got your diagnosis in 2019. Yes.

Jay Jay O'Brien 00:10:33 But I was also very concerned when I asked my oncologist about my endocannabinoid system, and I asked them, what do you know about it? And they said, oh, I've heard of it. And I was very concerned at that point because it's such an important system in our body that controls and regulates, you know, the balance of all the other systems of our bodies.

Jay Jay O'Brien 00:10:55 So I think it's really important that our doctors know about it, especially those ones that are supposedly like, have your life in their hands. Yeah. you know, did they know?

Margaret 00:11:06 Were they pretty receptive to you when you told them that you were using cannabis as a treatment option?

Jay Jay O'Brien 00:11:11 Again, it.

Jay Jay O'Brien 00:11:12 Was just like I was speaking.

Jay Jay O'Brien 00:11:13 To the wall. I might as well have been speaking to the wall. because they were just like, okay. And it wasn't until probably the fourth or fifth time that I mentioned it that it was actually written down in my chart.

Margaret 00:11:26 Oh, really? Okay. Right. Because I kept.

Jay Jay O'Brien 00:11:29 Mentioning it and kept it because they were just like, oh yeah, whatever we're doing is working. And I was like, okay.

Margaret 00:11:36 Right. Okay. That's interesting. I mean, with my my dad's experience, they have marked down in his chart that he's using cannabis now, but they haven't really said a whole lot about it. And again, I do get the distinct feeling that if I were to dig deeper, they don't know much about it because they spent so little time on it in medical school.

Margaret 00:11:56 Right?

Jay Jay O'Brien 00:11:56 Yeah. And people and so they don't know about it. So they don't want to have the conversation because they don't want to be made to look stupid, because nobody wants to have conversations about things they know nothing about.

Margaret 00:12:06 Yeah. Yeah. So when, when my dad was first diagnosed with cancer, one of the first things I did was call you, full disclosure. And I, after that conversation that I had with you, I put him on a daily regimen of CBN and CBD, which he's been taking consistently. It's been really great. The THC is a little harder to get into him for you know obvious reasons. He's in his 90s. He doesn't want to get high. But can you talk a little bit about how supplementing with cannabis can promote wellness X tone and while undergoing cancer treatment?

Jay Jay O'Brien 00:12:42 Yeah. Well, I love that he's at least open to trying what he's been trying, and hopefully it is serving him well. And yeah, I mean, it's great that we have this amazing plant that can help balance our systems.

Jay Jay O'Brien 00:12:54 And when somebody is going through cancer, that's so important. Your immune system basically, you know, your endocannabinoid system is running all through your immune system, and you need your immune system in good shape for when you are. Yeah, I don't like the word fighting, but when you are, you know, battling this disease, then you need to be in tip top shape at the end of the day. Right? And we we, like cannabinoids, have been researched for years and years and like decades. And like the main study that I know about goes back to 1975, the antineoplastic activity of cannabinoids. And they studied CBN, they studied THC, CBD, CBG and all of these were shown to be anti-cancer by inducing apoptosis. So it was killing cancer cells. So you know cannabis kills cancer cells. And then it can help keep new cancer cells from forming which is always the constant battle right, that cancer patients have. We don't want it to spread. When it spreads, it gets more difficult to treat.

Jay Jay O'Brien 00:13:53 So this is another, you know, area where cannabis has so much benefit. And then if you are going through the treatments, you know, chemotherapy or radiation or immunotherapy, any of these things, you know, they're taking a toll on the body as well. So cannabis can support you through that can help reduce the burden of a lot of the side effects that come with and actually help the medicine work better, because your body is in the best shape that it can be, you know, to go through it. So, you know, I mean, it's so supportive. I do wish, yeah, more doctors would at least look at it, as as as adjunct to,

Margaret 00:14:33 Yes.

Jay Jay O'Brien 00:14:33 Yeah. What they are doing.

Margaret 00:14:35 Yeah, I totally I agree with that because I also feel like if I was to go to my dad and say don't do any treatment, he would probably feel, you know, a certain type of way about that. But when you mention all the ways that cannabis can support the treatment that he's doing and the ongoing effects of, you know, battle battling, we don't want to use that word necessarily, but like, seeing the spread of more cancer, because once you have it, then there is always that possibility, I guess.

Margaret 00:15:05 But like all the things you just mentioned are great reasons to supplement with cannabis while you're undergoing cancer treatment. Yeah.

Jay Jay O'Brien 00:15:13 I mean, it's the only, you know, our bodies are hard wired for cannabis. It's the only plant on the planet that our bodies are hard wired for. Right. So, I mean, it just makes a lot of sense.

Margaret 00:15:26 Yeah. And I am very grateful that my dad is open to consuming it. It's really kind of nice to see because, you know, every day he's just getting out his, his, tincture and he's taking it. No questions asked. Really. Like it's just become part of his daily routine, which I love. And growing up they you know he's pretty anti cannabis. So he's come full circle now.

Jay Jay O'Brien 00:15:46 But amazing.

Margaret 00:15:47 Which, you know, you could change people's minds at any time in their life as well. So one of the things I wanted to ask you about was in your book, you talk a lot about the benefits of acidic cannabinoids for cancer prevention, treatment and general well-being.

Margaret 00:16:03 And I don't feel like enough people talk about acidic cannabinoids. And I do have like a lot of those pages, sort of like bookmarked because I thought it was so interesting. Can you talk a bit about that, about acidic cannabinoids?

Jay Jay O'Brien 00:16:17 Well, yeah, I'm with you. They're 100% like, I don't think we're talking enough about acidic, about the raw cannabis plant, like the plant in its natural essence has all these beautiful acidic cannabinoids. And. Yeah, they have a lot of benefit as well. You know, we know like CBD, the acidic version of CBD is like, what, a hundred times more potent a pain reliever than aspirin. You know, a THC, a potent anti-inflammatory more so than THC, and I learned from some of my colleagues from the Cannabis Coaching Institute, now the Cannabis Institute about blending like multi cannabinoid blends. And we, they, shout out to my friend Michelle Crawford who came up with the trifecta blend, which is the six sisters we call it of thc thc a CBD, CBD, a CBG, CBG and this blend.

Jay Jay O'Brien 00:17:12 We all started formulating it and we all started consuming and we all started seeing amazing benefit from it. And her family was seeing benefit from it. And everybody that she was sharing this medicine with was benefiting from it. And we were just like, well, and yeah, like eating, juicing, sprouting whatever you can. I mean, there is a lot of benefit to it. And like I said, we do not know nearly enough yet. I do think and hope there will be more, about this in the future, especially from actually some of our one of our education members. who is somebody that you should maybe interview if you haven't already? I think, Sheryl, and Haley, their story is remarkable and how beneficial, raw cannabis has been to Haley's treatment of her, particular condition. So, Cheryl. Rose. Haley. Rose, check them out. amazing story about the benefits of of raw cannabis. And even I don't know as much as I probably should about them yet. because, you know, the research isn't really there at this time, but, like, I think we're going to it.

Jay Jay O'Brien 00:18:25 We're going to change, you know, how we, you know, utilize this medicine in the future, I think, in a big way. Once this information, it does come to light.

Margaret 00:18:35 Yeah. Because I think it's also so interesting because there is still that stigma around cannabis use. But suddenly you're introducing this concept of for those who don't understand what an acidic cannabinoid is. It's just a cannabinoid that hasn't been decarboxylase, so you haven't applied heat to it. So when you're making edibles, you dip it in the oven first or when you, you know, smoke. You apply fire to the joint and light it up. So because of that there's not the, the intoxicating properties whether if it's thc a you're not getting intoxicated, which does make cannabis seem a little less intimidating to folks who are unfamiliar with it already. So I think that's such an interesting part of research that I would love to see more of, because so many people would be way more willing to, like, try THC.

Jay Jay O'Brien 00:19:27 Absolutely.

Margaret 00:19:28 If because they're like a little intimidated, intimidated about getting high. And I mean, you have in the book here thc a being like non inflammatory anti-nausea anti spasmodic neuroprotective appetite. Stimulant. Adaptogens. Analgesic. Like. That's incredible.

Jay Jay O'Brien 00:19:46 Yeah, yeah. And this is just the raw plant. Like this is just taking a nug, making a tea or sprinkling some of it on your food, like on your salad or sauteing the leaves or juicing the lead. I love juicing the leaves, like when I go out, when I'm growing every summer, every morning I'm out in my garden. I'm, you know, leafing. And I take a pull a couple weeds from my garden and they go in the juicer.

Margaret 00:20:10 Right?

Jay Jay O'Brien 00:20:10 Yeah, yeah. And like, it's good medicine.

Margaret 00:20:14 Yeah. Now, for somebody who's listening to this and they don't have, you know, they don't have anybody in their life that is managing cancer. It's not something they've experienced themselves. have you ever. Like, how do you recommend people start with something like a thc A or cbd a like just make tea.

Margaret 00:20:30 Could you infuse it into.

Jay Jay O'Brien 00:20:33 Yeah, you absolutely can. There's a great video on YouTube too by Reveal Cannabis about making cannabis tea from one of our education members, Tamara Wilton. Great, great video. But yeah, like cannabis tea. Yes. Absolutely. Super great. Easy method for just utilizing the raw cannabis and getting those benefits. And you get about like 5 to 10mg of the THC, A or CBD, depending on what you're using when you make that tea. So you're getting, you know, the benefit from that.

Jay Jay O'Brien 00:21:08 And yeah.

Margaret 00:21:10 Perfect. Yeah. I mean, I'm I'm somebody who loves to like, infuse. And I've always wondered I tried it once before and I used up the oil, but obviously it doesn't get you high. And this is long before, you know, I knew about you or read your book or my my dad's own diagnosis. But, you know, the idea of infusing raw flour into an oil sounds actually quite nice, because I wonder if it would also like, preserve a lot of the terpenes as well.

Margaret 00:21:35 So you can use it as, you know, part of your daily regimen.

Jay Jay O'Brien 00:21:39 Yes, you have to I. You have to dry it, though, because I have tried doing a raw leaf infusion before and it was just a slimy, moldy mess. It was not pretty.

Margaret 00:21:49 Okay. Right? Yeah. Okay. Duly noted. Be sure that it is raw, but. But dried and cured, right?

Jay Jay O'Brien 00:21:57 Yeah.

Margaret 00:21:58 Like, not just not declared content.

Jay Jay O'Brien 00:22:00 And I love sauteing them like kale, like sauteed the leaves. They got a nice spicy, kind of peppery like flavor that from the bitter carry off line and things like that. Yeah. yeah. It's very good, very good.

Margaret 00:22:12 Yeah. So one of the things that I encountered, and you talk a bit about that in the book as well, is that there are people who want to get THC into their systems, but they don't necessarily want to get high. Like in the case of my father. Yeah. And so this is where suppositories come in.

Margaret 00:22:31 Yeah. And can you talk a bit about why they're so effective? Because before I had that conversation with you, I didn't know what I now know about suppositories, and I think it's really interesting.

Jay Jay O'Brien 00:22:42 Yeah. For sure. I mean, 100% of the people that I work with utilize suppositories because most of the people that come to me, yeah, they've just been handed a cancer diagnosis and they're like, what, cannabis? Oh, and they just hear about it, but they've probably never had any experience with it before. Like many people haven't had experienced it with before or, you know, smoked that joint in high school and didn't really care for it, and they just moved on from there. most people have lives, they have families, they have jobs. They have, you know, responsibilities from day to day. So they don't want to have to be spending three months or whatever length of time, in a treatment phase, with cannabis and feeling, you know, a little bit, a little euphoric.

Jay Jay O'Brien 00:23:28 So, most people do suppositories. And this is because it bypasses the, you know, processing through the liver that first pass metabolism, and it doesn't get converted to that 11 hydroxy THC, which is much more potent than THC. So, you know, that's why edibles lasts longer and hit harder. And, and you don't get that euphoric feeling. So it just goes either rectally or vaginally, and it bypasses that liver and just goes and still crosses the blood brain barrier. So you're still getting all those incredible systemic effects. So, most people, like I said, that I work with are doing that now. I have had the rarest of people who do end up feeling a little bit of euphoria or effects from the suppository dosing. So we still start low and go slow with them still, even even though, you're not supposed to feel the euphoric effects on people, do people who are usually really, really sensitive to medications in general? People like really sensitive systems, or sometimes there's blood or things happening in the areas that can travel a little bit of, you know, active cannabinoids to certain areas that you don't really want.

Jay Jay O'Brien 00:24:48 so, or at least causing effects that you don't really want, but, there's a lot of ways to mitigate that as well. But in general, for the most part, most people don't feel anything but better, when utilizing suppositories.

Margaret 00:25:04 Yeah. And I don't think I realized either. I just learned this right now is that if you use the suppositories vaginally, that you also don't get high. And I guess that's because when we were talking about it, obviously we're talking about my father's. So we were talking about a certain method of application which would apply to him. But I think that's what makes them so interesting is that you can get your THC, not get intoxicated, but you could also potentially take a higher amount than you could if you were eating it or smoking it. because I'm pretty. You know, I have a a low to moderate dose that I could take if I'm eating or smoking. But, you know, if I take it as a suppository, I could probably also get more cannabinoids in me than I would be able to otherwise.

Margaret 00:25:50 Yeah. Which is really interesting.

Jay Jay O'Brien 00:25:52 For sure, because it's much more bioavailable that way as well. When you're utilizing cannabis via suppositories, you're getting like 60 to 80% bioavailability compared to, if you're ingesting it's, what, 20 to 40? If you're smoking, it's like 10 to 20. And so yeah. So you can start at higher doses like our starting dose for suppositories is 50mg. But most people wouldn't be able to start at a 50 milligram edible because that's gonna be way too much. But just because of the way it does get processed through the system, then you can do it that way.

Margaret 00:26:26 Yeah. And interestingly too, of course, for those listening that you can make your own suppositories as well, which I think is incredible. And you talk about that in your book too? Yeah. So that's another way that, you know, this medicine becomes more accessible to people, because when you can do it at home and you don't have to rely on, like, you know, going to the store to buy it because that can get incredibly expensive it very quickly.

Jay Jay O'Brien 00:26:48 Yeah. And if you are a cancer patient who wants to utilize suppositories to do like a treatment phase, you know you're not going to find that in the store. You know you're not going to get it at the dosages that you need. So you are going to need to learn how to make them for yourself. And I'm here to tell you it's really, really easy. And there are so many great people around that are great resources that can show you. But literally, if you can melt something, if you can simmer, you know, if you can make a cup of tea, then you can make cannabis medicine very easily and you can make a suppository. No problem.

Margaret 00:27:25 Yeah. And when I made it to, you know, based on your guidance, I used an ISO or a Fico, And that makes it even easier. I will say like it is like super simple. The hardest part is.

Jay Jay O'Brien 00:27:39 Just how butter to ingredients melt mold. Here you go.

Margaret 00:27:43 Yeah. Yeah. So it's I love that because I always just feel like anytime we can take control over our anything in our life like that, it's.

Margaret 00:27:52 It can feel really empowering, especially if you're dealing with, you know, a diagnosis of some kind. Because I also would imagine that using suppositories is a great way to get your cannabinoids if you're dealing with other things.

Jay Jay O'Brien 00:28:06 Well, yeah. And it's it's great for like targeting specific areas as well, like gynecological cancers and rectal cancers and things like that. You're going up those from those areas or regions you're hitting, you know, directly the areas that need to be hit. Same thing with the lung, because when you are going up through the rectum, you're running along a meridian that runs up your lung and all up here and up into your brain. So it's actually great for lung cancers as well. And for anything that, metastasize to the brain like lung cancer often does. So. it is a great, method of intake for, for many different cancers, not just for, you know, targeting in those specific regions, but if you're, you know, getting something up towards lung or brain, then going that route is great as well.

Jay Jay O'Brien 00:28:54 And that higher bioavailability, bioavailability, you're getting more bang for your buck as well right. So why not?

Margaret 00:29:02 Yeah. Yeah. No. It's, Honestly, the more you explore the the connection between cannabis and our bodies, it's to me really incredible. Because, you know, you could use a suppository vaginally and get all of these benefits from it. And then you could also use a lube and it still doesn't get you high. But it does definitely have a physical effect. And I just find all that stuff super interesting that this one plant has so many pathways to providing for us. So.

Jay Jay O'Brien 00:29:32 100%.

Margaret 00:29:33 Yeah. Now how do you approach dosing? Like how did you figure out what actually worked for you? Because I imagine when people are first starting out on this path, they're like, where do I even start? I mean, obviously if they're working with somebody like you, they have a leg up or an advantage, or if they buy your book, you have specific guidance. But like, how did you figure it out for yourself?

Jay Jay O'Brien 00:29:54 Well, yeah.

Jay Jay O'Brien 00:29:55 So I mean, I watched the Rick Simpson's documentary when I heard about Rick Simpson Oil, and I started researching Rick Simpson and all of the things and found out his protocol, which was, you know, the 60g in 90 days protocol, which is what most people are still generally navigating towards still today. you know, it's it's a guideline, not the rule. But, so I like I remember hearing Rick say, you know, get your oil, take a dose. If it gets you high, it's going to work. And so that was the guideline that I initially went off of and that was. And so we all know that I did get very high of my very above my first dose. So I was like, okay, this is going to work. But so that's why we always tell people, you know, start low and go slow. you know, it is the golden rule of cannabis dosing because there really is no regulation. There's no way to regulate it. So we just start low and go slow, and we work our way up to, to high doses.

Jay Jay O'Brien 00:30:59 And which is opposite of what most people do with all the other conditions that aren't cancer, is you want to find your minimum effective dose, right? You want to use the smallest amount of medicine to support your needs. But when it comes to cancer, like we're attacking, this is aggressive. So we need to take as much of this medicine as we can and get as much into us as safely and as timely as possible. So our dosing regimen is a little bit more like what Doctor Sulak says. You know, start low and go slow, but don't be afraid to go all the way. we're we're I do love a kitchen sink approach as well, where it's just, like, get as much into you as you can. As many different cannabinoids, you know, as many different, compounds from the plant into as many different holes in your body as possible.

Margaret 00:31:50 Right.

Jay Jay O'Brien 00:31:52 It's the kitchen thing. Just throw it all at it. There's no amount that's too much. Don't think you're going to blow out your endocannabinoid system or anything like that.

Jay Jay O'Brien 00:32:03 It's all temporary. And, you know, you're on a mission here, so just complete the mission and then. Yeah.

Margaret 00:32:10 That's interesting that you mentioned about blowing out the ex, because obviously when you when people are talking about, as you already mentioned, the minimum effective dose and that is, you know, wise advice because we're trying to avoid cannabis use disorder or hyperemesis, which I know is still pretty rare and spending piles of money. So this advice is sort of the opposite. Does your ex sort of when you have a diagnosis like cancer, does it sort of respond differently, I guess, to cannabis because you are trying to like take in so much THC or other cannabinoids?

Jay Jay O'Brien 00:32:45 Yeah. I mean, I don't know the definitive answer to that, but I would say, yeah, for sure. Right. Like your body is responding in the way that it needs. And your body in that time needs more medicine at that time because there's a little bit more that is going on. So and your body is going to guide you and it is going to let you know what how much is too much.

Jay Jay O'Brien 00:33:06 Like when I took my first dose and my body told me that that was too much. But you keep going and you build tolerance. You know, that's what the low and slow approach is for, so that you can build more tolerance to the side effects of the medicine. But that doesn't mean the medicine's not working. It is still working and it's still doing its thing inside of you. And in the beginning I was worried that I was going to take too much, too much cannabis. And I was going to, like I said, blow out my endocannabinoid system, and it was all going to be too much. But then I heard about others who took way more, who take way more up to 40g a day of cannabinoids. Yeah, 40,000mg, 40g a day. Of other people who have overcome cancer. And so when I was taking a gram a day, I was worried. And then when I heard about the 40, I was like, okay, I'm good. And I've had some ups and downs over my cancer journey where I had an need.

Jay Jay O'Brien 00:34:04 I was told I had no evidence of disease. I got the all clear and then I went, yay! And I went about my life and gave up all of my treatment. And then I had a recurrence of, 11 tumors in my brain, and then another recurrence later of a tumors in my brain. But I constantly went back to the cannabis for that. And when I had the 11 tumors, like I wasn't messing around. So I was started at one gram and went up to 3 or 4 for a few weeks in the beginning, just because I was like, yeah, this has got to go. And I did wipe them out in two months.

Margaret 00:34:39 Right. Wow. That's incredible. And and like you said, this isn't something that you're doing forever. This is obviously like a short term duration.

Jay Jay O'Brien 00:34:49 Your high doses are not forever. But maintenance dosing is very, very important when you are somebody who has dealt with cancer. And if you overcome the use of this medicine, it is very important that you continue on with it.

Jay Jay O'Brien 00:35:03 This is what works for you. And so you got to stay on it. But you don't have to stay on the crazy high doses. You just need to stay with a maintenance dose. It recommended like 1 to 3g a month. I do a gram a day, I don't I don't mess around because of my history and what I have gone through. A gram a day feels right for me and I think everybody's maintenance dose is different, should be different and it should be based on them, how they feel, what condition they have dealt with, what treatments their body has endured previously. and I think all of those factors should kind of be evaluated when deciding what a maintenance dose should be. But there should be a dose and it doesn't have to involve THC necessarily. Maybe a little bit. But having other cannabinoids too. Because my my grandma day is not all THC. There's CBG, CBG, a CBD. I'm mixing because, I well, because I know the benefit and, I'm just trying to maintain a threshold from the research that I've done and from what I've seen.

Jay Jay O'Brien 00:36:11 I think that the minimum threshold should be 200mg, roughly a day. Well, at least for me, 200mg a day, 200mg for treatment. And then And you can maintenance from there, right?

Margaret 00:36:27 And all that makes total sense, because anybody who's dealt with cannabis for any length of time knows that, it's all very personalized and individual, whether you're using it to treat cancer or whether you're just using it for stress relief or whatever your condition might be. So yeah, that all makes complete sense. Now, a lot of people who will be listening aren't patients, but they might be somebody who's supporting a patient or they're a caregiver. What do caregivers need to understand about all of this that they usually don't?

Jay Jay O'Brien 00:36:59 Well, I. Well, when it comes to the person that they are giving care for, I would say just understand that it's their journey, it's their life. And you of course, are going to have your feelings and opinions and wanting to do everything you can to save the person's life or do whatever you can for them.

Jay Jay O'Brien 00:37:20 But at the end of the day, you can't force anybody to do anything. everybody is on their own journey, and we all have a path. We're all here to do our thing. We're all doing our thing. And maybe they're just doing their thing. You don't know. And also, don't forget about cannabis for yourself, because your health is just as important as a caregiver. If you're looking after somebody, you need to look after yourself as well. So don't forget about, you know, maintaining the balance of your own endocannabinoid system because it will support you. Well.

Margaret 00:37:54 Yeah. And that's great advice too, because people often forget, like how challenging it can be to be the friend or caregiver for somebody who's going through something so difficult. And, you know, always if you're not looking after yourself, it's a lot more difficult to look after other people. So yeah, I love that. Don't forget about yourself.

Jay Jay O'Brien 00:38:11 Yes.

Margaret 00:38:11 Now, do you have any stories that highlight how cannabis and cancer can work together for the best patient outcomes?

Jay Jay O'Brien 00:38:21 Oh, that's a great question.

Jay Jay O'Brien 00:38:24 You know, I've. Excuse me. Cannabis and cancer. I mean, like, I have so many stories I don't even know. Like which one? Like it? Just everybody that I know that has accepted this plant and worked with it in some way has benefited in some way. I'm not saying everybody's lives have been saved and it's a miracle, but I mean, they've benefited. They like my father in law and it's one of my favorite stories, even though, like, he still passed away. He was given nine months to live and he passed away 11 months later. He did try to do chemo, but it was way too hard on him and he had to stop. He almost didn't make it through that, but he did do the cannabis all the way through, and he was utilizing the suppositories. And I had a previous experience with losing my mom to cancer, and it was completely opposite to what I had gone through with my father in law, which was great because I had the information that I didn't have when my mom passed away.

Jay Jay O'Brien 00:39:26 So because he was able to utilize the medicine, he lived that 11 months in no pain, in a great mood, able to talk and be like, you know, a part of our lives. And like when my mom got sick, she was so she was given so many drugs that she was gone before she was gone. Like, right. You know, it was awful that she was there and you were just, you know, watching the chest, every breath. Just wait to see which one was going to be the last. It was, you know, terrible. And I think that experience was a big part of what, you know, drove me in my own situation to be like, okay, yeah, no, I can't do this. We're going to do something else. And, you know, and off I went with my alternatives. But, you know, with my father in law, just the fact that he was there with us the whole time until the very end, like, until the last couple of hours.

Jay Jay O'Brien 00:40:21 And it wasn't until then, and the doctors couldn't believe that he didn't have any pain. They kept.

Margaret 00:40:27 Right.

Jay Jay O'Brien 00:40:27 You're not in pain.

Margaret 00:40:28 Like that's it. That's honestly incredible.

Jay Jay O'Brien 00:40:31 It was like. No. Like. No. Yeah. And they were like, okay. And so they were really shocked by that. So he thanked me for it every time that I saw him and when he would like, when we would kiss her goodbye or whatever, he would always whisper in my ear, thank you. I know it's helping. I know it's helping.

Margaret 00:40:48 And that's no small thing, right? Like, you know, if you're dealing with something so difficult and then. But you're able to deal with it pain free. Yeah. Or like mitigating all the horrible symptoms that can come along with it. Like that is so valuable. So.

Jay Jay O'Brien 00:41:02 Absolutely. So that really meant a lot to me. And, you know, I'm still new in this whole, you know, game of cancer healing and all of this and working with other people and helping guide them and educate them.

Jay Jay O'Brien 00:41:16 but like everybody that I've worked with is still here. I mean, there have been 1 or 2 that we've lost, but for the most part, everybody's still here. And sadly, like those people were the people that came to me as a last ditch effort after everything was done. And, you know, it was like it was we tried, we did everything we could, but it was just like, sometimes it is just too late, or sometimes it's just a person's time and, you know, this is life again. We all have to go at some time. nobody's getting out of here alive. So, you know, we're just trying to make it the most, the easiest and most peaceful, you know, situation that it can be for everybody.

Margaret 00:41:58 Yeah. Yeah, that's that's beautiful. But the one thing I do think we need to touch on, of course, is that you and I are talking from Ontario, Canada, and we have federal legalization here, which I'm very grateful for.

Margaret 00:42:09 So access for us is obviously mostly uncomplicated, but for people who don't have access or it's limited. How do you counsel somebody in those kinds of situations?

Jay Jay O'Brien 00:42:23 Yeah. Well, I mean, even with legalization here in Canada, cancer patients, a lot of people like me are still kind of left in the dust because we can't really access the medicine that we need on the legal market. So. Right. I mean, at the end of the day, we gotta do what we gotta do. So I just say it's your life. And where there's a will, there's a way. And there are like loopholes in our in our Canadian Charter of Rights and Freedoms and in our Canadian criminal code that do protect us as patients. Like, you know, no, there's not the RCMP or, you know, the OPP. They aren't out here, you know, arresting cancer patients who are trying to access a high, high, you know, dose cannabis oil so they can treat themselves. but at the end of the day, you know, it shouldn't be it shouldn't be an issue.

Jay Jay O'Brien 00:43:12 But, it is outside of the gray areas of the law, but at the end of the day, they're not really enforcing that law. So I just kind of let people know that, hey, it's your life. You need to do what you need to do. And we're not like out here doing anything horrific and hurting people. we're just using a plant to save our lives. So, It's okay. Take a deep breath. There are lots of places to access. There are a lot of compassionate people out there that are willing to support you, who make medicine to support patients, because it is not available from the powers that be. So, I mean, it's a little bit of a different world when it comes to dealing with cancer, because we do have to work a little bit more outside of the law because the law is not supporting us.

Margaret 00:44:00 Right? Yeah. It's always it's always tricky. And the places where like, you have no legalization at all as well. Like, do you find that people have more trouble finding reputable sources to get there?

Jay Jay O'Brien 00:44:13 I mean, in the US is where there's a lot of places that you know where it's still illegal or not medical or whatever.

Jay Jay O'Brien 00:44:21 and, there are way more people in the US that you can get access from than you can here in Canada. Oh, absolutely. Federally legal.

Margaret 00:44:31 Right. That's very interesting. Actually, I'm disappointed to hear that. But also not surprised maybe.

Jay Jay O'Brien 00:44:38 So yeah. Well, larger population, more people. And, you know, it's more of the it's been more of an issue there because, you know, there it is not federally legal. So more people have been, you know, skirting the law because, you know, they're doing what they have to do to support people who need this medicine.

Margaret 00:44:57 Yeah. And I, I, like you said to I do get the feeling that here in Canada, even though, you know, buying Fico online isn't necessary. It's sort of like a gray area. But I don't think the authorities give a shit.

Jay Jay O'Brien 00:45:09 They're not shutting down these sites. Left, right and center. I mean, they're they are, you know, hurting the compassion clubs and and you know, the sovereign market right now in a big way.

Jay Jay O'Brien 00:45:21 but and that is affecting patients. But they're not hitting us directly.

Margaret 00:45:26 Yeah. Well, hopefully they back off on some of those areas and what people do, what they need to do. Because honestly, you know, at the end of the day, there's far worse things that they should be dealing with, as we all know. Yeah. Yes. Yeah. So I guess, just a couple more questions before we finish off for today. But if you could change one thing about the medical establishment and how it approaches the conversation about cannabis, what would it be?

Jay Jay O'Brien 00:45:54 Well, just to be able to have the conversation.

Jay Jay O'Brien 00:45:57 Would be great. And for them to be and, educated about their endocannabinoid system so that they can educate other people about their very important system. so, yeah, really, at the end of the day, they just, they have to be open to have the conversation. And that means having a little bit of education, you know. I understand doctors have to fill their brains with so much information.

Jay Jay O'Brien 00:46:20 There's so many different ailments and so many different drugs out there. And, but, you know, cannabis is an option that a lot of people are moving towards. And, so you gotta at least have a little bit of information. Or if you don't have the information, know who you can send them to, you know, to get the information from like, you know, you know, say, well, I don't know, but go talk to somebody at education and they can help you. Like, you know, we have to work together here. We cannot leave people in the dust. We cannot keep ignoring people and acting like what the words that they are saying are don't exist. You know what I mean? Like, I don't want to keep going into my oncology ward and feeling ignored. Like it's really not a supportive process for my healing.

Margaret 00:47:03 Yeah. Now, do you think that it's changing at all? And the only reason I ask this is because, like, my dad's been dealing with oncologists, of course, who have been practicing for a while.

Margaret 00:47:16 Let's just say they're not new to the practice. And then we he has a new GP that took over, a GP retired and another one took over. And this GP is younger and also way more open minded about like cannabis and having conversations about them. So I'm just curious if you think it. I don't know anything about what's going on in medical schools, but like, do you think it's changing at all? Like, are they introducing the concept of X and cannabis more?

Jay Jay O'Brien 00:47:44 I know there are a lot of organizations that are trying to, you know, fight to have this taught more in medical school. I know the numbers are still very low, like around 7% or something like that of schools mention the endocannabinoid system or anything like that. And oddly enough, in my experience, it's been the older doctors who are just like.

Margaret 00:48:06 Oh, interesting.

Jay Jay O'Brien 00:48:07 Yeah, we, we know and and we're close to retirement, so we don't care anymore. So we will talk to you about cannabis. But but great to see.

Jay Jay O'Brien 00:48:16 Yeah. If there's younger doctors that are coming in and are more informed because it is legal now here in Canada. So you know, people more people are likely to, to access it. yeah. I mean, it would be interesting. It would be interesting for sure. But,

Margaret 00:48:36 I guess that's sort of like kills my theory in a way. When you said you found more oncologists are more open minded about it. And I'm like, maybe like older kind of older ones.

Jay Jay O'Brien 00:48:45 Yeah, the older ones, but not so much like an oncology. Well, like I said, I've had several different oncologists and yeah, most of them just are like, no, we're not even talking about that whatsoever. But it has to change. I mean, could more and more patients are becoming aware more and more patients are asking questions. So at some point, I mean.

Margaret 00:49:08 It becomes impossible to ignore. Right. Like if you keep having patient after patient coming in. Being like, you know, I want to start with cannabis right from the outset and see where that takes us, whether they're supplementing or, you know, whatever the case is for them.

Margaret 00:49:22 Absolutely.

Jay Jay O'Brien 00:49:23 And I have a bunch of books up here. They're all written by doctors. Like, just go pick up a book and like, I have two copies of Cannabis Medicine, but by Doctor Goldstein, because I'm like, I'm going to give 1 to 1 of these doctors.

Margaret 00:49:37 Right.

Jay Jay O'Brien 00:49:37 And then they read it and learn something from it.

Margaret 00:49:40 Yeah. Yeah. It would be nice to see that. Would that would change the game for sure. But I guess it just takes time and more patients coming in and and advocating for themselves because at the end of the day, that's what you have to do. Right. Yeah.

Jay Jay O'Brien 00:49:52 Yeah. So in the meantime, yeah, that's why education exists. That's why I exist. Because, you know, doctors and are kind of dropping the ball on this right now. So, we're here to support you. We're here to support each other on this journey. And, you know, we're just patients helping patients. We're not medical professionals or, you know, anything like that.

Jay Jay O'Brien 00:50:13 I got letters after my name, but they're not MD or RN. I'm just, you know, I'm just a regular person. And I just had to navigate a really tricky situation. And it took a lot of digging and, you know, deep dives and things like that. So I'm just again, like I said, just trying to share what I learned and make the journey easier for somebody else.

Margaret 00:50:34 Yeah. Well, that's a such a wonderful way to give back to the community too. So thank you for that. And because you have been so involved in doing research for yourself and then later for your book and your work with education, is there anything that's come across your radar as far as research goes when it comes to cannabis and cancer that you're particularly excited about?

Jay Jay O'Brien 00:50:55 Well.

Jay Jay O'Brien 00:50:57 Maybe not particularly cannabis and cancer, but there, like there's a lot of studies coming out these days. I'm glad they're still coming out pro anti-cancer cannabis. Yay. You know they're really showing like against ovarian colon like great studies coming out with that as well.

Jay Jay O'Brien 00:51:16 But the latest thing that actually has just blown my mind is the flava alkaloids. Have you heard about these flavor alkaloids that they found in the cannabis leaf.

Margaret 00:51:25 Yes. And I was thinking about trying to remember the name of it was when you were talking about juicing leaves. Yeah. Yes.

Jay Jay O'Brien 00:51:31 Yeah. Exactly. Right. So the flavored alkaloids are in those leaves because they just developed some new microscope that could look deeper into them. Just the fact that we are still discovering components in this plant after 12,000 years of recorded use on this planet, we still don't know everything I know. When I first started studying cannabis, there was, we said there were 500 compounds in the cannabis plant. Now there's 750 that we know about. Like, it's just right. It's mind boggling. We're still learning about this plant. We're still learning about ourselves. But these flavonol alkaloids I think are very interesting. And with the can of flavin a and b and c. So I'm interested to see what will come of that.

Jay Jay O'Brien 00:52:14 And I think that they do would have some anti-cancer benefit as well.

Margaret 00:52:19 Right. Yeah. And that's like a brand new study that's pretty much come out.

Jay Jay O'Brien 00:52:23 September last year it came.

Margaret 00:52:24 Out. Yeah. Yeah that's really interesting stuff. And it does also give you another reason to juice your cannabis leaves. Exactly. Yeah. And just to add on to the cannabis leaf thing, like if you are growing and you have cannabis leaves, and you can't necessarily like if you're pulling down a plant for harvest or whatever, can you freeze these leaves? Can you how can you store them? Because you don't necessarily want to make all the tea with all the leaves. Yeah, well, I.

Jay Jay O'Brien 00:52:50 Use them and I freeze them into ice cubes. I feed the juice into ice cubes, and then I throw that in my smoothies or something like that as well. So I've never tried like just freezing the leaves straight because I know.

Margaret 00:53:02 Your methods better. Honestly.

Jay Jay O'Brien 00:53:04 Freeze kale, but yeah, juice them and then just freeze it in the ice cube trays, and then you're good to go.

Jay Jay O'Brien 00:53:09 So you can even, like, if you have a male, you need to call a male, then don't throw it in the garbage. Don't burn it. Don't set it on fire. It's juice it. It's got so much benefit in there. In the plan there. Yeah, a lot of great medicines. So just juice it and drink it up.

Margaret 00:53:25 I do like the idea too, of just processing it all at once and then freezing it. I don't know why. Yeah, I get that in the moment, but. And I don't know if you've heard that there is apparently a high amount of CBN in the root ball and people are using the root ball to make infusions as well. Yeah. So it just goes to show that like the cannabis plant can be used from root to tip.

Jay Jay O'Brien 00:53:45 And yes 100% amazing right.

Margaret 00:53:48 Yes yes.

Jay Jay O'Brien 00:53:49 Yeah. Beautiful thing.

Margaret 00:53:51 Yeah. So finally JJ what are you hoping that readers take away from your book or from this conversation?

Jay Jay O'Brien 00:53:58 Well, I hope.

Jay Jay O'Brien 00:54:00 They enjoyed the conversation. And from the book, you know, of course it's it's about hope and it's about Education, and it's about inspiration and empowerment, really at the end of the day. So I hope that, you know, people will feel a little less daunted about cannabis after reading it and feel at least that they can make an informed decision after reading it. And it's a quick read.

Margaret 00:54:23 So yeah, and honestly, it's a great book and I think anybody should pick it up if this is something that they're interested in or their caregiving or their, you know, have had a recent diagnosis themselves, it can really dispel some myths, break some of that stigma. You've got so much research and recipes in it as well. So yeah. So thank you so much, JJ, for your time today. And I think the people listening will get something from this conversation. And thank you. Have a great thank you.

Jay Jay O'Brien 00:54:54 Thank you.

Margaret 00:55:32 And that's it for this week. My friends. I appreciate you spending this time with me and with JJ.

Margaret 00:55:36 And if there's something in today's conversation that hit close to home, share it with somebody who needs to hear it. That's how this community grows, and you can find all the details on where to connect with JJ in the show notes. And if you're ready to take more control of your own healing and your own kitchen, find me at Bite Me podcast. Your kitchen is the best dispensary that you'll ever have. Until next time, friends. I'm your host, Margaret. Stay curious and stay high.