Margaret 00:00:07 What happens when you take a love of food, a passion for culture, and a deep knowledge of cannabis and you toss them into one bowl? You get Bite me! The podcast that explores the intersection of food, culture and cannabis, and how cooks make great edibles at home. I'm your host, Margaret, a certified Ganjier Tsai certified cannabis educator, and I believe your kitchen is the best dispensary you'll ever have. Together, we'll explore the stories, the science, and the sheer joy of making safe, effective, and unforgettable edibles at home and for less money. So preheat your oven and get ready for a great episode now! Today I am very excited to introduce to you Doctor Sarah Andre. She is a veterinarian by education and training and is committed to providing veterinary practitioners, animal caregivers and the emerging cannabis industry with science backed, clinically applicable, patient focused education on the safe use of cannabis and animals. And she is a wealth of information that distills that knowledge in a clear and concise way. And we cover everything you need to know to use cannabis safely and effectively for your beloved furry friends like how to choose the right products, safe dosing protocols, the animal X, and knowing the signs of cannabis toxicity in animals.

Margaret 00:01:24 If you have pets. This episode is for you and without making you wait any longer, please enjoy this conversation with Doctor Sarah Andre. So we're live, and I'm very thrilled to be joined today by Doctor Sarah Andre. And I was just hoping before we get started, if you could tell the listeners of Bite Me a little bit about yourself and your cannabis journey and what brought you here today?

Dr. Casara Andre 00:01:51 Absolutely. Well, thank you. I'm thrilled to be here. I'm definitely a fan of your work and excited to interface with your audience. It's always a pleasure to have questions about pet safety come our way. Love to answer those type of conversations. yeah. I am a practicing veterinarian in Colorado, which is out of the United States, and I have to say that probably that is what has put me into a lot of these emerging markets, both on the cannabis side. Now we're doing a lot of work with the psychedelic side. So what has sort of been needed by the patients around us? What is the patient need? Where is there need for harm reduction? What's the community need from my colleagues as veterinarians? when Colorado changed some of our cannabis policies as the veterinary community, we were faced with, what are we supposed to do about this? How do we respond? How do we give guidance to our to our pet parents? So I have to say that it's just been a privilege to watch some of these markets emerge over the past couple of years and to hopefully be a really effective voice at advocating for animal safety in the midst of that, but then also really bringing questions about what can we do from a therapeutic side as well?

Margaret 00:02:58 Yeah, and that's sort of why I wanted to have you on today, because I definitely have a lot of listeners who have pets of their own and are very curious about how they can best use these compounds to help them in their own health journeys for their pets.

Margaret 00:03:11 But there's a lot of confusion around it. But before we get into something more specific, you mentioned that the cannabis, of course, and the psychedelic medicine for animals, and that's something that I'm not really familiar with. Can you talk a little bit about that and what that looks like in your practice?

Dr. Casara Andre 00:03:27 Yes, but I'll be careful because I could talk about this for hours and hours and hours. So you'll have to stop me, but I'll keep it. Keep it short. again, animals are exposed to whatever we're interested in. And thus questions from your listeners about can what I've experienced from cannabis be extrapolated to my animal or how should I be safe? And so really, we see whatever humans are interested in, the animals that are adjacent to us, that share our homes, our families, our relationships, our choices, that they're affected by that as well. And particularly on the psychedelic medicine side, it is the same risks that we see from cannabis accidental ingestion, malicious ingestion, therapeutic ingestion.

Dr. Casara Andre 00:04:11 But particularly in psychedelics, we see human adjacent harm happening. So as the human works with psychedelics, if particularly if it's a really strong bond to the animal that's next to them, you're affecting that animal in some really important ways that we need to think about. And definitely my practice, we see incidences of harm. Fortunately, cannabis gives us a lot more clinical breadth to work with. all the molecules are pretty safe in terms of toxicity. As long as you're working with plant based materials. Once you get into the synthetics, even on the cannabis side, we start to have a lot more concerns. So I'll I'll pause there. But happy to elaborate in this or future conversations. It's definitely a fascinating area of science and definitely fascinating area of medicine.

Margaret 00:04:56 Yeah, that is very fascinating because I wasn't even aware that some people were potentially using psychedelics in their for the health of their pets. And I'm sure that's a that could be an entire separate episode. So I will definitely bookmark that because we may need to come back to that at another time.

Margaret 00:05:12 Excellent. Now, your website also mentions that you focus on trauma related emotional disease and animals, especially when it comes to canine PTSD. How does cannabis play a role in your trauma aware, family unit focused approach to treatment?

Dr. Casara Andre 00:05:29 Again, what a lovely question. I it's something that I really love to chat about because I think trauma informed, trauma aware veterinary care is just beginning to come into our industry, just as it begins to broach human medicine and our awareness of really needing to care for nervous systems that have been have received trauma in a particular way. And my background, my early career was in the military. I was a veterinarian for the US Army Veterinary Corps. And so my association with canine PTSD and human PTSD, and particularly the intersection of those two and how cross-species interstate interspecies interaction, affects both of those diseases in each species, has been part of my career for a long time. so that's really the basis of a lot of why my work started down that avenue. But with cannabis in particular, we're working on the endocannabinoid system, and that system is responsible for balancing everything from the somatic body to the autonomic nervous system to the emotional body.

Dr. Casara Andre 00:06:35 And so when we're dealing with a trauma based case, just giving the endocannabinoid system time to heal and the endocannabinoid system time to help that body regulate in its own time frame is really, really core to that. So I think that would be the easiest way to describe that work is helping the body heal in the way that it wants to, in the time that it needs in cannabis. Give us a really gentle way to do that in a in a method that's very clinically applicable.

Margaret 00:07:04 And of course, you're always referring to pets as we talk about this, because it sounds very similar to what we humans as well. So and I find it really interesting that you mentioned, like, I guess, the bond between the pet owner and the pet and how much that can affect their healing. And I find that really fascinating. I mean, maybe it's not surprising, as someone who has owned pets, I don't have one right now. But yeah, that bond is pretty special. And it's.

Dr. Casara Andre 00:07:31 Absolutely.

Margaret 00:07:31 Yeah, it's really interesting that you touch on that.

Margaret 00:07:33 But no.

Dr. Casara Andre 00:07:34 Yes, I will just put a point in clarification. I am speaking about the animal just from my perspective as a veterinarian. But most of my clinical practice is in interspecies medicine. So an animal adjacent to a human that is healing from PTSD or an emotional disorder, The pet's endocannabinoid system does more physiologic work to help their human ground be regulated. Does that make sense? And again, another huge and fun conversation. But just really being aware that that human animal bond has weight and physiologic work on both sides. If you've ever had an animal that's a bit stressed out, you know that it stresses you out, right? Reverse also happens to you.

Margaret 00:08:17 Yeah. Okay. now, you did already touch a little bit on the endocannabinoid system or the ECS in humans. And I think most of our listeners will probably be aware that animals have an X as well, but I'm sure it's different. Maybe you can just talk a little bit about the X in animals.

Dr. Casara Andre 00:08:37 Yes. Well, I am excited about the fact that your phrasing of that question tells us we've come so far.

Dr. Casara Andre 00:08:43 I think that I would say it's exciting that we think about there being an X in humans and animals as a core concept of medicine. And that was not true ten, ten years ago, five years ago. And so just to see that in our conversations is amazing. Us recognizing that there is a system, endocannabinoid system is so important in all medical practices. What, no matter which species you're dealing with, because an endocannabinoid system of some form is in every animal that has a spine. So vertebrates and they're all going to be a little bit different, but they're similar enough so far as we know, that we can make some clinical extrapolations from that. And why cannabis in veterinary species is interesting is because they're mammals. And so we know a lot about the humans X. So we can actually extrapolate a lot from human based research to say, well, how must this also apply to our companion animals. Even some of our like food animals farm animals because they are mammals as well. Their X is actually really, really similar.

Dr. Casara Andre 00:09:50 We can see differences. Dogs, for example, have a lot more CB1 receptors, one of the receptors within the X in their cerebellum. And that's why they get a very particular form of intoxication. But it's really similar. And so it's really useful for us to extrapolate from human based research into our animal patients.

Margaret 00:10:09 And so because some of those receptors as well, like you mentioned in in dogs that they have different like more CB1 receptors, does that mean that a lot of the cannabis or cannabinoids like CBD or THC will affect them very differently than they would their human owners?

Dr. Casara Andre 00:10:23 I would say more strongly and more potential for a particular type of intoxication. So from the therapeutic side, clinical side, we are working with really low doses and being really careful about how much we administer and going really slowly so we can be pretty close to what we know from the human side. But just as an example, dogs have a lot of CB1 receptors in their cerebellum, and the cerebellum is what gives you your balance and your coordination.

Dr. Casara Andre 00:10:49 And so dogs get a very particular form of ataxia. It's called static ataxia. and they're just miserable. They're just sort of standing there, not able to move, kind of swaying back and forth. And so it is an intoxication like a human would experience. But because those receptors are very prominent on the cerebellum, they're not able they have a different form of in coordination.

Margaret 00:11:12 Right. And anybody who's ever seen a dog overdose unfortunately on cannabis has probably seen that. But yeah, I didn't realize. Obviously, I'm sure a lot of listeners didn't realize either that that affected their balance so much because I have seen pets where they've been accidentally dosed and yeah, they're definitely not steady on their feet.

Dr. Casara Andre 00:11:33 Absolutely, absolutely.

Margaret 00:11:34 That doesn't sound like a good time. It sounds like when someone's had too much to drink, and you're at that point where you can't stand up straight, and that's not a fun time. So.

Dr. Casara Andre 00:11:42 Or, you know, as I see on your website, some of your information about the brownies that you didn't exactly know how much was in there.

Dr. Casara Andre 00:11:48 So again, that same concept, but also the animal didn't know, the animal didn't consent to eating the thing. And so there's also that aspect of just not being aware of what's going on. That adds that confusion as well.

Margaret 00:12:01 I can I can totally imagine that. Now, for pet owners who are kind of new to the idea of dosing their pets with CBD or THC, can you talk about why it's important to understand the distinctions between the two? Because I've always heard, you know, dogs are they don't tolerate THC, but I don't always understand why can they tolerate any of it? Like maybe you can just touch on some of that.

Dr. Casara Andre 00:12:26 Great question. Importantly, the reason to know the difference between the molecules is because they have really different physiologic effects. The CBD molecule has very different effects in the body than THC, and when in combination, there's also going to be a different effect there. Our medical director likes to say it's one On pharmacology. If you have different ratios of all the molecules, you're still putting it into the body at the same time, and the effects of the body are going to be relevant to what molecules you actually put in.

Dr. Casara Andre 00:12:55 So the molecules themselves are really different. And we want to make sure that the protocol that we're putting into the animal, the molecular profile design, matches what that body needs. For example, if we have a condition that needs a lot of THC, the animal is going to be okay. They're not going to get that intoxication effect from even high amounts of THC. But if they don't need it and they get too much THC, they're going to have a really, really, really miserable night, really miserable day. So it's more about understanding what that animal's physiology needs, what is the state of their endocannabinoid system, and what are we trying to do? How are we trying to support them? What's the clinical goal that we're trying to get to there?

Margaret 00:13:39 So for most people, then if they decide that their pet is perhaps aging and just have a lot of aches and pains and stuff. When would. How would they determine whether or not they should give them THC or just stick to CBD?

Dr. Casara Andre 00:13:53 Again, great question.

Dr. Casara Andre 00:13:54 I would back that up and say I would. I guide my clients to start with a plant extract. And so plant extracts like as close to the natural form as you can get is going to have a little bit of THC. So that is going to be as long as you start low. We're going to still start very, very small and very, very slow. That's going to be safe for most animals, as long as you don't have other concurrent conditions, other medications that are on board. So it's not about avoiding THC. It's about making sure that you have a really clean product and are starting as low as you possibly can, and then very carefully and honestly evaluating the animal's response to it because they can't tell us. Our ability to observe how they respond to that and also give them the option to opt in or out, is really important. How we work with some of those ideas and animals.

Margaret 00:14:45 So that so basically the observation is a key point. And as always start low and go slow, especially with your pets, because as you said, they can't tell you if it's too much.

Dr. Casara Andre 00:14:54 Absolutely. And journaling is really important as it is for the human side, but particularly on the animal side, because they can't tell us. But also as we change the endocannabinoid system, those changes take place over time. Most of those patterns and those trends that are looking to adapt are going to change over about 72 hours the week, a couple of weeks, and it's really hard for us to remember all those subtle changes. Are you tracking how well they're sleeping, how much they're interacting, and we might have a general impression over time, but a journal is a way that we take those subjective, just kind of watching observations and make them objective and then can make some clinical assessments from them.

Margaret 00:15:35 Right. And I'm a big advocate for writing things down because I have forgotten many, many times when I'm doing experiments in my kitchen. And you think I'll just remember that? And you never do.

Dr. Casara Andre 00:15:44 Because you never do.

Margaret 00:15:46 Yeah, yeah, just. Life is busy. There's too much stuff in your head.

Margaret 00:15:49 So, yeah, journaling, I think, is a great way to keep track of how your pets respond to whatever dosing you're giving them because you want to be safe. Of course. Now, we'll come back to some of that in a minute. But the market is flooded with CBD products for pets. And what are some of the important things that a pet owner should look for if they're looking to purchase somebody or purchase something from a reputable source?

Dr. Casara Andre 00:16:12 Safety. And thus your comment about reputable source. So I would say that what makes a source reputable is that they can demonstrate what's in their product, where their product came from, and that there's no obvious effects that are going to be unsafe for the animal. So with a certificate of analysis from the medical perspective, I have to know what's going into the patient. And as a pet parent, you want to know that too. So yes, which molecules are being administered. That's really important. But also, what's your freedom from information that you don't have heavy metals, that you don't have pesticides, that you don't have a lot of these other contaminants? If we're trying to do something for the pet's benefit, adding a bunch of lead to their diet because it's in the cannabis product is not our goal.

Dr. Casara Andre 00:16:58 So a reputable product has easily accessible COAs that are understandable. And that's a big caveat sometimes and that they're actually clean. I've seen so many COAs on marketed products that have lead content in them, and it's on the CoA and you can get the CoA for the product. But why would you put that in your animal? So actually doing the due diligence of asking the company for their lab report, looking at it, and if you don't understand it, asking for help there, and can the company be reached? Can they tell you about their product? Can they back it up from a customer service perspective?

Margaret 00:17:33 Right. So essentially, a lot of the same things you look for in a product that you're buying for yourself because you don't want to ingest some of those compounds. I know myself, so why would we give it to our beloved pets?

Dr. Casara Andre 00:17:43 Absolutely. And think about that body weight difference, right? Something that should also not be good for you. But you're a human, a large human, versus your small cat or your small Chihuahua.

Dr. Casara Andre 00:17:53 And even those very, very trace amounts can really, really be damaging to even a generally healthy animal, but particularly if we're trying to use it in a medical context where we have other systems that are struggling, we need that product to be really clean right now.

Margaret 00:18:10 Sort of like going on with this idea, full spectrum, broad spectrum and isolates our products that you see on the market all the time. Which one do you typically recommend for our pets?

Dr. Casara Andre 00:18:24 Great question. I love terminology questions. That's like always the thing that I love to talk about because from the medical perspective, it's terminology that helps me understand my clients questions. What is the product that they're wanting to use? What a product are they using? And it just gives us a way to talk to each other. But the cannabis industry has a lot of jargon, as you'll know, and sometimes that in and of itself makes it really difficult to navigate. And I would say that jargon is a reason that we sort of see some barriers between medical cannabis use and the general industry of cannabis.

Dr. Casara Andre 00:18:59 It's hard for medical practitioners to interface with some of the jargon. And I'll give you an example. So full spectrum is a very cannabis industry jargon phrase to say pretty, pretty complex. There's a lot of molecules in there. I don't particularly like that phrase because to me, full means every one of those slots on the spectrum should be filled, that there should be exactly what was in the plant is in my product, and that's not usually what that means. So I teach my team to use the term complex spectrum. So it means that there's just a lot in there. And it is complex, which biology loves complex things. And it essentially says, there's a lot here. See, the CoA and I don't always love the term full spectrum because it just has a lot of different meanings. I want to see the lab report. So that's kind of my thing on the full spectrum piece. Similarly to broad spectrum in medicine, we would use the term broad to mean it's going to cover a lot of things, like, as an example, broad spectrum antibiotics.

Dr. Casara Andre 00:20:00 That means that it's an antibiotic that's going to get a lot of different microbes and cover kind of a lot of different spectrums. But in cannabis jargon, that means usually without THC. And that's just defined by a jargon of the industry. But it doesn't give you a lot of medical basis to bite into and to kind of grab into. So that's a difficult term, but broad spectrum usually meaning without THC and then isolates isolates can be anything. Essential oils are isolates. They're isolates of one particular molecule. And we can have isolates of THC isolates of CBG isolates of CBD. And so it's really important again to know what molecules are we talking about. And not just be distracted by the jargon. So all that little rant aside.

Margaret 00:20:47 I know it's good to distinguish. I think like especially in case there's people listening who don't necessarily know the difference between full spectrum and broad spectrum. Sometimes it's hard to remember all the jargon as well. So I do appreciate that you take the time to explain that to us.

Dr. Casara Andre 00:21:03 And I think it's useful when you're trying to talk to your veterinarian about it, that you kind of know why there might be a bit of a disconnect and why we're all trying to look at the lab report.

Dr. Casara Andre 00:21:12 But if we pull jargon to the side, I would use a phrase a CBD dominant. So hopefully that makes sense to everyone that the the most prominent, the the biggest volume of molecule in this product is the CBD molecule. So CBD dominant complex spectrum. So lots of other background molecules with a good CoA that shows safety. So that would be my answer of like a good product to start with, starting really low, really slow and journaling. That's a pretty safe way to start most animals, as long as they don't have other drugs, you're using other supplements that you're using, other herbs that you're using, or other concurrent conditions. If your animals are generally healthy, you just kind of wanted to give a little bit of support. That's a pretty good product to start with.

Margaret 00:21:59 Okay. That definitely clarifies that question. So broad spectrum is what you would recommend, I guess broad spectrum CBD dominant broad spectrum.

Dr. Casara Andre 00:22:07 Well, I guess let me rephrase that because I, I would say that I would not use the term broad spectrum because I like having some THC in my product, but a plant based extraction.

Dr. Casara Andre 00:22:18 So we're talking hemp level, a little bit of THC that that's just one of the background molecules. We're not having a lot of THC on board. So reasons that we would want a broad spectrum product would be an animal that is very sensitive to THC, or an owner that's very sensitive to THC. Sometimes owners just don't want that as part of the product or accessibility. Maybe we can't access a product that has THC, so having THC in the mix is not a caution for me. As long as I know it's there, I can see the CoA and we're going really, really slowly.

Margaret 00:22:51 So then does that. I guess that brings up the question does the entourage effect, I guess, affect pets the same way they were? Absolutely. Okay.

Dr. Casara Andre 00:22:58 Absolutely. And what's so fun about it is it's mammalian medicine. So from those concepts of the entourage effect, how these molecules work together, it's really similar because we are such close mammals and our endocannabinoid systems are really, really similar.

Margaret 00:23:14 Very cool. Now let's talk about dosing for a minute, because I know this is probably the question that a lot of people want answers to, but the concept of a biphasic dose response curve is pretty interesting.

Margaret 00:23:24 Can you explain what that means for pet owners and who are trying to find the right dose for their pets? Because you mentioned earlier a small cat or a Chihuahua, But then somebody might have a dog that weighs £100 or more. So how do you dose. when there's such variety in our animal companions?

Dr. Casara Andre 00:23:42 Yes, yes. What a great question. And I'll add to the question, not just a weight based variability, but that endocannabinoid system, as we know from the human side, in the same person or the same animal, your ex can be different from day to day. Whatever challenges you're undergoing, either your internal environment or the external environment, the support that your ex needs is going to change. And so that's that's really the concept we need to take into animal care is that that animal's X is different and it's not really based on weight. For an example, some of the work done in elephants, the dose would be the same as what you might give a Chihuahua. So it is not based on body weight.

Dr. Casara Andre 00:24:25 It's really based on what does this animal need and what are we observing. So going back to the journal. How do we know if we're not actually writing it down and reviewing it, looking at it and really thinking about how that animal is doing? But I will go back to your question about biphasic dosing. So that's a really cool concept. So in general, biphasic means that there's two stages of a biological effect based on the dosage amount. So just that you're going to get different effects based on how much you put into the body okay. It's not simply give more and you see more of the same effect at some point in that dosing curve, you're going to see different effects on the body. Does that make sense kind of as a baseline to start from.

Margaret 00:25:06 Yeah I think so. Yeah.

Dr. Casara Andre 00:25:07 So if we take that concept and apply it to cannabis and this happens in a lot of other molecules as well, cannabis is just interesting. One and we'll talk about CBD kind of particularly if we see clinical effects at a pretty low dose.

Dr. Casara Andre 00:25:20 It's easy for us, particularly as humans, to think, well, a little bit more is better. More is always a little bit better. And that's just not true. And so with biphasic dosing. We can see that when one dose is effective and we keep going up, at some point that dose becomes either ineffective or negative, have negative effects. And so that's really important for everyone to remember, is that there is a point on that dosing curve when too much is too much, and there is a point when too little is too little. And so the point and the rule of cannabis dosing is that it's right for that patient and that we're willing to change it over time because that animal is changing, too.

Margaret 00:26:00 It sounds a little like there's a law of diminishing returns then, which is sort of like over time you can give them higher doses, but that's not necessarily going to give them better effects. It could even be a negative effect.

Dr. Casara Andre 00:26:12 Yes. Unless we happen to have a disease condition that requires more and more support.

Dr. Casara Andre 00:26:18 So that's why it's important to not think about it as a hard and fast rule. And really look at the animal. For example, let's think about a cancer case. If we're really trying to support an animal through a cancer process. There is dysregulation happening in the animal's body at a growing rate, right? That cancer system is growing. And so we might need to continue to increase our dose to support the body against that cancer. And so we might keep going up and up and up and up and continue to see positive effects. But that's because of what's going on in that animal's internal environment.

Margaret 00:26:52 Right. So I guess what you're saying is each animal is pretty unique, just like humans, because I talk about that a lot when it comes to humans. and so you're not necessarily going by weight of the animal, because I think that's sort of a, a common belief is that if you have the £100 animal versus the £12 animal, you should be basing it on weight. But what you're saying is you would start at the lowest possible dose and just slowly work your way up until you get the effects that you the desired effects, which is essentially what you would do for yourself if you're just starting out?

Dr. Casara Andre 00:27:28 Absolutely.

Dr. Casara Andre 00:27:29 And thinking about your molecular profile. Maybe it's not CBD or THC that the animal needs. What about the other amazing molecule, CBD, a CBD? Some of our terpene molecules, those are all really, really effective in animals as well. So as an example, if you have an animal that's sensitive to THC, but maybe you have a disease process where you really want that on board, maybe we rework a molecular profile to lower the THC and have more CBG or some nursing in there. What can we actually do from that holistic perspective? And I'll just throw in because it's amazing and curiosity provoking. What are the other ways we can support the endocannabinoid system that's not cannabis. Maybe cannabis is not the right modality for this animal. So I think that's a really good point. Just to say, if you're feeling that it's not working, something's just not the animal's not responding or you feel like something's not just awry, that's a good time to reach out for help so that we can just look at what are all of the holistic pieces of this and maybe move some things around.

Dr. Casara Andre 00:28:30 Try a different modality like massage, acupuncture, rehab. All of those support the ex. Cannabis is just a really, really easy, clinical way to do that.

Margaret 00:28:39 Right now, just to go back for a second to because you mentioned CBD. A so you're suggesting that some of these on DeKalb and I can't even say it, the ones where the acid molecules have not been removed.

Dr. Casara Andre 00:28:51 Yes.

Margaret 00:28:51 Can be really effective. Can you talk a little bit more about that? Because I find that pretty interesting.

Dr. Casara Andre 00:28:57 Absolutely. So again mammalian medicine. So we find that these other molecules are also really effective in animals. And so you'll notice that I use cannabis as a term as a pretty overarching umbrella. And I'm usually speaking about the plant the cannabis plant and recognizing that we have many, many molecules. The plant produces hundreds of cannabinoids, all these terpenes, even de flavonoids. And so from a clinical perspective, we think about all of those being effective, doing something in the animal's body, and also remind everyone that the entourage effect we think about that being is better for everybody.

Dr. Casara Andre 00:29:33 But you can also have molecules that cancel each other out. What if you have some molecules that are a little bit uplifting and also some that are a little bit calming? What happens then? They're also going to interact together. So it just requires a lot of humility from us from the clinical side to observe the animal. What are we trying to do and be willing to change our protocol over time? I love CBD, what a great inflammation control. Really good for GI inflammation. Kind of getting that GI tract to calm down effective and nausea, even anticipatory nausea. So think about car rides. Or if you have an animal that's going for a chemo visit, they can kind of anticipate that feeling. So really, really interesting. Uses. Their CBG is one of my favorite molecules at the moment. Really good for muscle relaxation, facial relaxation, even really lovely. And seizure control because we can get that body to relax. And we don't have that little nervous system as spun up as it has to be.

Dr. Casara Andre 00:30:28 So the minor cannabinoids, which is also a misnomer because sometimes those molecules can be the most dominant molecule in the product, are so lovely, so lovely in animals.

Margaret 00:30:37 That's that's really amazing and so interesting because I feel like a lot of those would be great for humans as well. But we tend to overlook things like the THC and the CBD because we're always looking for the often looking for the intoxicating effects, but it's just a nice reminder that these can play a pretty big role in our our own lives.

Dr. Casara Andre 00:30:55 So. Absolutely. Absolutely.

Margaret 00:30:57 Now, if there is someone who wants to administer cannabis to their pets at home, are there differences between the effectiveness between oils, edibles or other forms and like, what's the best way to go about it?

Dr. Casara Andre 00:31:09 Absolutely. Great question. Again, I would say that most pet parents feel more comfortable beginning to interface with a treat, and that's what most pet stores are pushing or product companies are pushing. But treats are really just easy. That doesn't mean they're medically useful because we have extra ingredients that might have issues with allergies, calories, we might have issues there.

Dr. Casara Andre 00:31:32 So treats are just a very non-clinical way to use cannabis, and you're not really going to see as much effect as you could if we really dig into it medically. So tinctures are my favorite. So tinctures with a high quality oil, because where the oil comes from matters almost as much as the cannabis that's in it, and that we know which molecules are actually in the product. That's really where I like to start. And again, in a tincture, you can start with a drop and work your way up to what you need. So it gives you a lot of versatility from a dosing perspective. Now not every animal is okay with an oil. Think about a horse trying to give a horse an oil. It just kind of dribbles out of their mouth. So there's formulations like pellets. pace can be really common. Powders can be really good if you have animals that are sensitive to oils. But in general, a tincture or an oil based product is usually where I like to start.

Margaret 00:32:23 Okay, so you could do a tincture, an oil based tincture.

Margaret 00:32:26 Could you do like a glycerin based tincture as well, if that's something that someone is inclined to do?

Dr. Casara Andre 00:32:31 Potentially, as long as the animal doesn't have any issues with that base. I like the oil bases because many times that palatability is easier for the animals. Like a safflower, oil might be a bit better fit for a cat. A hemp based oil can be really unpleasant for some of the dogs, and so I really like for those oils to be as clean and as natural as we can have them. So we're also not adding extra things in. There are lots of water soluble products that are useful in animals, especially if you want a faster effect, but we're usually working with oil based products.

Margaret 00:33:04 Okay, now that's good to know, because I know there's a lot of listeners that are obviously making their own oils at home, oils and tinctures. So it's it's pretty simple to make a lot of these as well. So yeah. And they can also be added to treats or to food, different ways to sort of get your pet to take something that might not want to take otherwise.

Margaret 00:33:23 But some of them are picky out there. Some of them not so much.

Dr. Casara Andre 00:33:27 But but some of them are also too eager, and especially if your listeners are making their edibles at home. A really big clinical caution that we have around that is your nosey dog putting their nose into your trash can after you've strained out the cheesecloth from your edible, making it home. That can be a really, really dangerous source of a lot of harm for an animal, because we have now a foreign body ingestion, a large amount of THC, a lot of plant material that's going to take a long time to come out of the body and probably needs like clinical or if not surgical intervention. So that can be a really effective way to get a product and kind of make one for yourself and for your animal. But remember that there are a lot of cautions because your animal doesn't know that that cheesecloth or that pan of butter isn't necessarily for them. So just being really careful because animals don't know, and we have to make sure we guard them from some of those harms as well.

Margaret 00:34:23 No, and that totally makes sense. So to be very careful when you're disposing of any plant material, when you're doing the infusion process, because I know I have I have two daughters who each have a dog. One will eat anything and the other one's super picky. So I could see the one of them getting into the trash can afterwards for sure. Because she's yes, she's gross and she's one of her. So now what are some of the common mistakes that you see pet owners making when they're trying to experiment with giving their pets cannabis for the first time?

Dr. Casara Andre 00:34:53 I would say extrapolating from their own experience, and hopefully that makes sense. Usually that's in a good and a generous way, wanting their animal to also experience the healing benefits of this plant. But remember that your animals X and their ability to consent or opt out is different than yours. So making sure that you are observing your pet objectively, having a really defined set of goals and journaling is the way that we operate from a consent or co-operative care basis.

Dr. Casara Andre 00:35:26 Your animals experience is not your experience, and your experience is not your animals, but you are their guardian and we are making choices for them every day. So wanting to extend the healing benefits of this amazing plant is so beautiful. But we need to do that in a way that really respects their otherness, their own sense, their own species, and make sure that we know how to say no. When does that animal not want that dose? When is it not appropriate for them? And also making sure that we're not dosing the animal for our behalf. So why are you dosing yourself? Is it for an anxiety disorder, something that you're struggling with giving your animal that same medication, if that's not their issue, is extrapolating and projecting onto the animal in a way that can be really unhealthy and unsafe.

Margaret 00:36:17 Right. That's a great answer. I mean, yeah, it kind of leads into the next question I have in some respects is the signs of THC toxicity. And of course, you hopefully don't get to that point, but it does happen sometimes.

Margaret 00:36:32 can you talk about, like, what the signs are and what an owner should do if their pet does have too much?

Dr. Casara Andre 00:36:39 Stay calm.

Margaret 00:36:40 Okay.

Dr. Casara Andre 00:36:42 That's the basis. Stay calm. Okay. preventative is always best. So making sure you're locking your stash up. dogs can get into everything. Cats are great climbers. the thing that your toddler can't open, your animal probably can. So just being really aware that the cautions around us preventing that risk can save everyone a lot of trouble, a lot of concern, a lot of hurt. But things happen. And animals are very nosy about the things we're interested in. And so if the intoxication is to happen one you staying calm, lowering the sensory environment. So just like humans. A THC intoxication is going to make that animal really sensitive to light, really sensitive to sound. So you keeping your voice slow, turning off the light, making sure they're in a safe spot. So if they aren't sure where they are, they at least can smell things that are familiar.

Dr. Casara Andre 00:37:34 They're not going to run around and bump into furniture or fall down a set of stairs. So what? How can you make that environment nice and comforting? If that intoxication is very extreme, they might need medical care. But remember that that trip to the clinic with bright lights you driving really fast? It's not really the best thing to do in that scenario. So one prevent see if you can treat at home. Maybe then call the vet clinic in case you do need to come in. But what can you do at home? And an important thing to know is that CBD really is the antidote, the THC intoxication. I'm sure you talk about that from the human side. So having a CBD isolate so only CBD in that product. At home, you can administer to the animal that has received too much THC, and that CBD molecule will knock the THC molecule off of the receptor in a way that allows that high experience to come down, that intoxication experience to come down. Now, the animal still has to metabolize all of that THC out.

Dr. Casara Andre 00:38:35 So you may need to dose a couple of times. But that's a really, really effective and safe way to help an animal through an intoxication. Also, limonene works really well. So the zest from a lemon, just like in humans. And we often will use that in clinics if we don't have a CBD level around just putting some. It's from the skin of a lemon, so it has to be a zest of the lemon in front of the dog's face, or an animal's face will bring down that high. Just remember, the THC molecule takes a long time to metabolize. So you're thinking more about, aromatherapy, putting something in a diffuser. So you need to keep treating. But knowing how you're going to respond. If your animal does get into something they shouldn't. Really. Can be an important harm reduction action.

Margaret 00:39:19 Yeah, I'm so glad that you mentioned that, because I know that that the panic response is so normal and people and I never really occurred to me. Of course, if the they're the animals having some sensory overload and then you're rushing to a vet clinic or something like that, that that's probably just going to make things a lot worse.

Margaret 00:39:36 And most of the time they just tell you at the clinic, just let them sleep it off. So you end up going home and they haven't really told you anything specific about what you can do, because I would imagine a lot of vets aren't necessarily versed on cannabis and pets to begin with.

Dr. Casara Andre 00:39:51 I would say all vets are versed on the intoxication experience. So we have all seen that intoxicated dogs stumbling into the clinic, and that's what most of us have familiarity with. We're not doing that from a clinical perspective. And if there's something in between where you can manage it at home, that's beautiful, but calling your vet or your E.R. and saying, hey, this happened, I might need some help. Is there anything else I should know or do? Can really be a way to make sure the clinic is prepared in case something were to happen, because you can get enough THC that the dog can really struggle. The animal can struggle, but most of them can be managed at home. I will also add an a caution that it's other things that are in cannabis products.

Dr. Casara Andre 00:40:34 The chocolate that are in the brownies, the xylitol that's in that candy, the wrapper, the cheesecloth itself, the foreign body, the the vape cartridge that those things are much more risky and potentially lethal to the animal than the cannabis itself. So just because your animal ate cannabis, there could be a lot of risk in there because of the other things that are around. Does that make.

Margaret 00:41:00 Sense? Yeah, totally makes sense, because I've always long heard that chocolate is very toxic to dogs in particular. And of course, if they eat your tray of chocolate brownies, then they're getting the chocolate and the cannabis. Yeah, that's like a double whammy. So yeah, that totally makes sense. And that's good to know actually, because I didn't know that about the xylitol.

Dr. Casara Andre 00:41:18 Absolutely. Xylitol is extremely toxic to animals. Even like a little bitty xylitol, piece of gum can be really, really toxic. So it's probably the other things that are in the product, in your chocolate bar and your piece of candy that are worth that call to the veterinary clinic.

Dr. Casara Andre 00:41:35 The cannabis part is probably going to be okay, but especially in today's industry and market, it's the other ingredients we're really concerned about, right?

Margaret 00:41:43 Which totally makes sense too, because not too many dogs are getting into your stash of of weed like they are maybe going to get into the brownies if you're not careful, but I doubt they're going to, like, stick their nose in your bag and just eat raw cannabis.

Dr. Casara Andre 00:41:56 Well, I'll tell you what happens a lot is the friend that comes over and there's something in their purse, or there's something in the backpack, and the dog is just nosy and putting its nose everywhere. It's like, that's for me. I'm gonna eat it. So that happens frequently. being really careful about joints. Will all of your users know what that is? Or the roach? The end of a joint in the gutter. So many of my clients have had their animal experience severe intoxication because they're on a walk, just having a lovely walk. And then suddenly the animal begins to stumble and is a toxic.

Dr. Casara Andre 00:42:29 And they grabbed a joint that was in the gutter and had all of that THC ingested and were high because of it. Or another really common occurrence is if someone pours out bong water, hopefully your users will know what that means. There's a lot of THC there, and if the animal comes by and licks up that water or kind of sniffs around on the ground, they can also get intoxicated from that. So there are reasons your animal might get intoxicated that don't have anything to do with you. And being really aware of your environment is an important harm reduction technique.

Margaret 00:43:04 Okay, that's excellent to know as well because yeah, some of those dogs. Well, I'm thinking of my daughter's dog would probably do something like that.

Dr. Casara Andre 00:43:12 It's common. Yeah, it is really common. Yes.

Margaret 00:43:15 And I find that interesting though, because also like if you have a joint that's just sitting on the ground that was left outside. I mean, typically for us humans, it would have to be decarboxylation before it would affect us.

Margaret 00:43:25 So our dogs or pets are more affected by, raw cannabis.

Dr. Casara Andre 00:43:31 I guess usually what happens, it's the end of a joint. So if someone has smoked it and it's the roach at the end, the little filter. And so there is it has been decarboxylation. And so there's a lot of THC built up in that little part that the person doesn't ascend. Exactly. And then they tossed that away, which shame on them for littering. Put it somewhere else. Yeah, but that piece is really easy for the animal to pick up, or at least explore with their mouth hold in their mouth for a moment. And who knows why. But most dogs think they're delicious and curiosity provoking, so they are going to pick it up like it really is a thing. Sometimes I for some of my very curious animals, I encourage their owners to use a muzzle, a basket muzzle where the animal can breathe and drink and eat, but they can't pick stuff off the ground, whether that be goose poop, other dogs, poop joints.

Dr. Casara Andre 00:44:21 And again, I live in Colorado, so there are things like, psychedelics on the ground, mushrooms that people have thrown away, really, really dangerous compounds. So today's world is not always safe for an animal, and we need to be really aware of what they could just inadvertently get into because they're being curious.

Margaret 00:44:38 Okay. Yeah, that's that's very good advice. Now you have talked a little bit about it earlier, but what are some of the most common conditions that you see in your practice that respond particularly well to cannabis pain?

Dr. Casara Andre 00:44:51 Pain is one of the most common reasons that I think a pet parent seeks or begins to think about cannabis. It's one of the ones that cannabis just really, really works well for, because pain is such a a body wide issue, no matter where that pain is coming from, the entire body is involved in it, processing it, thinking about it, feeling it. And so because we can support the endocannabinoid system through cannabis, we're able to impact a lot of that pain pathway, inflammatory cascade in some really, really effective ways.

Dr. Casara Andre 00:45:22 It really, really low doses. So I would say pain is a great reason to think about cannabis for your animal. And we know a lot about which molecular profiles work really well for different types of pain. So from a clinical perspective that's a great one. I would also begin to talk about cognitive decline. That's a really common reason for owners to seek out cannabis. The aging animal who just doesn't seem quite as alert or bright, maybe wandering pacing, not really sure where they are. Cannabis is a really beautiful neurologic support, so helping that nervous system realign itself and fine balance. So that's another one that I love. Definitely beginning to be more on that clinical intervention side seizures internal medicine cases. And then I work mostly in behavior behavioral health and so behavior cases. And there's a whole range of those are other really, really common reasons for owners to be curious about cannabis.

Margaret 00:46:15 Is there anything that pet owners should perhaps not consider cannabis for?

Dr. Casara Andre 00:46:20 Yes. Fantastic question. So when I teach cannabis classes, instead of saying a contraindication, which means we should not do this, I usually say a clinical caution, meaning that we should just have a very clear idea of which molecules we're using, that they are clean, you know, heavy metals into our kidney failure patient please.

Dr. Casara Andre 00:46:39 And that we are journaling effectively. So in that light whenever we think about cardiac cases we want to be really, really careful. THC in particular will change heart rate blood pressure. And if you have a cardiac case those can be really detrimental. However, we do see cannabinoids be cardio protective. And so sometimes we do use cannabis in cardiac cases. But we're doing it really carefully, monitoring, really carefully, working with the cardiologists, etc. so cardiac cases really deserve a lot of caution. Kidney cases are also really important to be careful with. Most of these molecules can be a bit dehydrating. We can change some of the animal's behavioral patterns. Maybe they're not drinking as much. So again just cautious. And then behavioral patients. While cannabis is really really effective in behavioral cases, it's not just a magic pill that makes it better. It's going to create an opportunity for something to be better. But it could also make that behavior case worse if we're not approaching it in the appropriate way and giving that behavior modification at the same time.

Dr. Casara Andre 00:47:41 So caution. That would also include a caution for me of you're not just tossing a cannabis treat to your dog before you walk out the door, and they have separation anxiety, but maybe we can use cannabis in some of our training sessions to make that a little bit of an easier learning curve for the animal right now.

Margaret 00:47:58 I guess this sort of brings me to this question of how should someone talk to their vet about their use of cannabis? Because I would imagine, like I kind of mentioned earlier, that many vets aren't really well versed on the use of cannabis as a treatment beyond the like the intoxication when they come in and they've had too much.

Dr. Casara Andre 00:48:17 Great question, because most of the veterinarians, particularly in general practice or ERS, are going to have seen that intoxication. And so I think it is a pretty gut reflex, kind of a knee jerk reaction to say, oh, be careful. I've seen so many cases where that's gone poorly. And so making sure that they have an awareness of how it can be used medically is important.

Dr. Casara Andre 00:48:40 Knowing that cannabis molecules, whatever they are CBD, THC, CBD, these are really powerful physiologic molecules that have medicinal effects in the body. Otherwise we wouldn't be talking about it. We use it for medicinal effects. But if those molecules are in my patient, it does affect my dosing of other drugs, of other herbs of other modalities. And so as a veterinarian, if I don't know that these cannabinoids are in my patient, there's a huge part of my patient's history. It's medical history that I'm not aware of. Our medical director, Doctor Gebhardt, just actually finished his master's thesis in integrative medicine and cannabis research. And his paper is on the use of cannabis prior to anesthesia. And we see that cannabis use does affect the doses of anesthetics that we use. So just a really good example of your primary care veterinarian needs to know, even if they're not comfortable directing that protocol or really going into the details of it with you, it is it is medically effective molecules in their patient that does affect the dosing and the treatment that also might be added in.

Dr. Casara Andre 00:49:50 So awareness would be the keyword there okay.

Margaret 00:49:53 So just be making sure that your the practitioner that you're working with is aware of how you're using cannabis to treat your animal. Before I guess, anything happens.

Dr. Casara Andre 00:50:05 Absolutely not. Part of the medical record? Yeah. Take in your CoA and say, you know, this is what I'm using. Here are the molecules. And that way you can actually have a really good discussion together. So if you do want to broach that topic with your veterinarian taking in the CoA, taking in the product and its label so that you can together look at it and say, here's what's going into the patient. Is this good? Is this not good or just to chart it over time? my patients journals are part of the medical record because I can see what's happening in their bodies over time.

Margaret 00:50:34 Right. Okay, that's that's also good to know this. I feel like I have a million more questions, but I want to be mindful of your time. So I did want.

Dr. Casara Andre 00:50:42 To I'm happy to talk about it all day, so ask away.

Margaret 00:50:46 what do you see happening in the field of veterinary cannabis medicine, like in the next 5 to 10 years that has you excited?

Dr. Casara Andre 00:50:55 Cannabis teaches us so much about the endocannabinoid system. And I say this to all of our students in our certification class. Cannabis is cool because it shows us about the ECS, but the endocannabinoid system is really what's beautiful about our patients, about mammals, about vertebrates. And cannabis just gives us a really safe, clinically applicable way to affect that system. So what I would love to see over the next 5 to 10 years is to continue this trajectory of SB in our conversation, cannabis being less stigmatized. So we can actually talk about should it work, could it work, how did it work? And we're just beginning to see this information put into curriculum much slower than I think we should. But I think within the next 5 to 10 years, it is going to be a mainstay of how we think about all types of medicine, because endocannabinoid system regulates all the other subsystems that we know about.

Dr. Casara Andre 00:51:48 So understanding it from a science and medicine perspective better, and ECS seeing it involved in curriculum more widely, and then that we're doing really clinically significant research, that we're not just changing the dose of one molecule like CBD and just pulling it up and down. But we're really looking into what does different mixes of molecules do. What happens in different cases. So really focusing on clinically applicable research versus what a product wants done because they want to be able to add their label researched. You know, we really want to know how does this work in a clinical perspective.

Margaret 00:52:27 Yeah. Now two more questions for you today. One is just to wrap up, what do you think is the most important piece of advice that you can give to a pet owner who's considering using cannabis to help their animal companion?

Dr. Casara Andre 00:52:42 I would reframe it from advice to a note of gratitude. Thank you for being involved and invested in your animal's health. If you're curious about cannabis and exploring it as a modality, it tells me a lot about what? You're looking for, that animal companion in your life.

Dr. Casara Andre 00:52:59 So thank you. My gratitude to you in how much you are invested in the health of your animal, and to really keep that at the center, that you are not trying to do a certain dose or a certain product. You're looking at your animal's well-being and their long term health. And so then that would feed into my piece of advice of keeping that at the forefront. Don't be swayed by the marketing. Don't be swayed by the pretty brand that has good colors and the paw print. Really dig into the science because it is there. Ask for the Koa. Be the annoying customer that calls a million times. Ask for more just like you would. Ask for better and more for yourself. Of course we want that for our animals. And if you're the pet parent who is curious about this, I know that you're also that pet guardian who is going to ask the right questions. Dig until you find the right answers, and make sure you're looking for the professionals who really can back you up and have that animal's well-being at the forefront of everyone's mind.

Margaret 00:53:56 So that's a beautiful way to approach that. I really like that. And I guess just to wrap things up, where can people learn more about your work and you in the world?

Dr. Casara Andre 00:54:04 Well, we would love to interface with any of your audience. I'm so excited to just be collaborating with you on this. I think it's such an important topic to bring to the forefront. We have a couple of ways I think people would find interesting to interface. Our website is Veteran Cannabis org. Where can you just find general information? We have a certification class that is open to medical professionals, non-medical professionals, parents that are curious about biology. So that's a really fun class to involve in. We have a community forum. If you're looking for just some case studies to look at or a safe place to ask questions, and if you are a little bit more on that clinical side, if you have audience members that are interested, maybe are animal caregivers, pet sitters, dog walkers, any of that. We also have office hours and some shadowing opportunities because that really is where we are now as a medicine community is sharing ideas, learning from each other because it is a new science, it is a new medicine and it is emerging and evolving really quickly.

Dr. Casara Andre 00:55:02 So sharing that across industries is important.

Margaret 00:55:05 Excellent. Well, I just want to say thank you so much for your time today, Sarah. It was such a great conversation and I know everyone listening will be able to approach using cannabis with their animal companions and feel a lot, a lot better about it, like they actually know what they're doing. So I really appreciate your time and thank you for joining me today.

Dr. Casara Andre 00:55:22 Thank you so much. What a fun conversation. What a privilege and best of luck to everyone who's curious out there about cannabis. Again, thanks for investing in your animal and your relationship with your animal. That's a really beautiful thing to explore.

Margaret 00:55:34 I hope you enjoyed that conversation with Doctor Sarah Andre. Please share it with somebody that you think would benefit from listening to it. Of course, you'll find all the detailed show notes on the website and the podcast app that you're using right now, and continue the conversation over at the Bite Me Cannabis Club. And until next week, my friends, I'm your host, Margaret.

Margaret 00:55:53 Stay. Hi.