The Powerful Science of Cannabis and Exercise with Dr. Whitney Ogle

Margaret 00:00:05 Hello friends. Welcome to episode 270, where I sit down in interview doctor Whitney Ogle about cannabis and exercise. Welcome to Bite Me, the show about edibles where I help you take control of your high life. I'm your host and Certified Ganjier Margaret and I love helping cooks make safe and effective edibles at home. I'm so glad you're here. Welcome back, friends, to another exciting episode of Bite Me. I'm glad you're here and you've decided to share some of your time with me today. I am looking forward to sharing this episode with you because we are covering cannabis and exercise with our guest, Doctor Whitney Ogle. Whitney has been conducting and summarizing research related to cannabis use in sport and physical activity since 2017. She's a professor of kinesiology at Cal Poly Humboldt and also has a podcast of her own called Exploring Cannabis and Exercise, where she and her guests deep dive into the subject. In today's conversation, we cover such topics as how cannabis affects the body during exercise. The differences in how cannabis affects endurance athletes for versus those engaged in high intensity sports, the role that cannabis can play in reducing inflammation and aiding muscle recovery.

Margaret 00:01:24 Post-exercise advice that she might give to someone who is new to combining cannabis and exercise together. And don't worry, when we talk about athletes in this particular episode, we're talking about athletes and context of regular, everyday people, not professional athletes. Not only is Whitney a professor and researcher, but she's also a cannabis consumer herself. So please enjoy this fascinating conversation with Doctor Whitney Ogle. All right, everyone, I am really excited. Today we're doing something a little bit different from the typical edibles content that I'm doing. And I have with me, Doctor Whitney Ogle, and she is an expert in cannabis and exercise. So don't let me do all the talking. Doctor Whitney, if you could just introduce yourselves to the listener, listeners of Bite Me and let us know what it is exactly that you do.

Dr Whitney Ogle 00:02:25 Yeah. Hi, I'm doctor Whitney Ogle. I my background is in exercise physiology, and, how the brain talks to the body. So motor learning and motor control. I also have my doctor of physical therapy, and, what I found so interesting was as a cannabis consumer myself, was that out of all of those years of education, I never once learned about cannabis.

Dr Whitney Ogle 00:02:49 And, and so when I it was one of those things that I thought, oh, gosh, one day I want to do research about cannabis because I know that people were talking about it. I would talk to my friends about going rock climbing and smoking weed before, you know, rock climbing. And I just knew that there wasn't research out there. So I, I saw a posting for a job, in academia at Humboldt State University. It's now rebranded as Cal Poly Humboldt. And I thought I associate Humboldt with weed. And so I thought, all right, maybe if I go there, then I can start doing the research that I've always wanted to do. And so, yeah, I, I totally changed my area of research as soon as I started my job at Humboldt. And yeah, I've been studying how people use how and why people use cannabis with exercise and starting to do some other, good research this semester as well.

Margaret 00:03:42 That is super cool that you saw a gap and you decided to just go ahead and fill it yourself.

Margaret 00:03:48 I mean, that's a that's a can do attitude if I've ever heard one. And of course, Humboldt is like the Mecca.

Dr Whitney Ogle 00:03:54 Exactly.

Margaret 00:03:55 For Cannabis, so you're in the best place you could possibly be for that kind of thing. And so I'm you're obviously extremely well versed on cannabis and exercise, not only from an academic perspective and a research perspective, but it sounds like from personal experience, which is really cool. So maybe you can just start out and explain to the listeners how cannabis affects the body during exercise in terms of performance and recovery. And just to sort of put some parameters on this conversation, I am thinking in terms of recreational and amateur athletes, not professional athletes, because I think most of us listening here probably don't fall into the professional range. Totally.

Dr Whitney Ogle 00:04:34 Yeah, yeah. And that's usually what our research is done on. It's it's usually been on people who are not professional athletes. There are some people who are starting to do that research on professional athletes. And it's a it's amazing.

Dr Whitney Ogle 00:04:46 And I'm so happy that professional athletes have actually kind of led the way in more of that public acceptance of cannabis use with sport or just being fit at all and being a cannabis user. And so. yeah, I, I think this is an interesting topic. One of the things that, when we first started our study, our survey of cannabis users was that we found people, other labs were also doing the same research at the same time. And what the research has shown across the board with all of our different surveys of cannabis use and, and exercise is that people are using cannabis before exercise to help them enjoy the exercise experience. one of the interesting things that researchers found in like 2007 was that actually moderate exercise, for about 45 minutes leads to an increase in the endocannabinoid system. So we have more biomarkers, of endocannabinoid receptors, or molecules in our bloodstream when we do, when we exercise. So that idea of the, the runner's high is actually stimulation of the endocannabinoid system. So there is this, this, you know, connection between the endocannabinoid system and exercise anyways.

Dr Whitney Ogle 00:06:06 And so it was really interesting to see that people were saying that they used cannabis with exercise to help them enjoy the exercise experience. And, helps with mind, body, spirit connection. People are saying that they are able to like be more flexible or lift more weights. We still need to actually research that to see if that's true or if that's just, you know, stoner logic. Right. and but yeah, that's, that's what we find with before exercise. And then people are using cannabis after exercise to help with recovery as well.

Margaret 00:06:40 Okay. So I mean, it makes a lot of sense that if you can use something like cannabis to make exercise more enjoyable, because obviously exercises can make you feel better, but if you don't want to do it, then you don't get those benefits. So that's interesting. Yeah. Now are there specific cannabis cannabinoids that are most beneficial to athletes and how do they interact with the body during physical activity?

Dr Whitney Ogle 00:07:03 Great question. And we don't really know the answer yet.

Dr Whitney Ogle 00:07:07 there's a group of us researchers who are looking at different types of, you know, cellular research to survey, research to, you know, different types of research. So I think that people are just barely starting to look at different cannabinoids right now. We've kind of only looked at just THC and CBD and, and, you know, just looking at it super generally, you know, not going into the, the terpene profiles or, you know, indica, sativa or, you know, however people decide to categorize cannabis right now, we're kind of just looking at like CBD and THC, just generally. But people are saying that they are using more THC strains and more, and I know that this, this, you know, terminology is kind of becoming outdated now, but, more of sativa strains before exercise. And then, people are using more CBD products afterward to help with recovery.

Margaret 00:08:05 Right. That's interesting. And in your own anecdotal evidence, like have you found that like, so you don't necessarily find that CBD is as helpful, but prior to exercise versus afterwards.

Dr Whitney Ogle 00:08:16 What we actually find is that people who are using more CBD products have no difference in their running time or speed. They actually can can participate at the same rate that they would, without using any kind of cannabis product. And then they are a little bit slower when they use more THC products. and so just from kind of personal experience, I'm still learning what kind of products work best for me. I think that's one of the biggest things, is that there is such a huge individual differences between from person to person. There are some strains that make me feel really strong and, you know, powerful when I'm running or doing yoga. And then that makes other people fall asleep. So, yeah, it's a whole learning process to try to figure that out, right?

Margaret 00:09:05 That's pretty interesting, too, because, I mean, for so long, cannabis has been, I guess, aligned with the idea of being a performance enhancing drug, which doesn't sound like it is necessarily. And like that those feelings of like one cultivar might make you feel stronger and faster, doesn't necessarily result in better times, per se, so it just goes to show how important this research is as well.

Margaret 00:09:29 does cannabis influence pain perception or pain management for people who are using it for exercise?

Dr Whitney Ogle 00:09:36 Yeah, that's one of the big things that, the research has been, kind of promising so far in that direction that there's more and more research that's showing that cannabis actually does help with, with pain and sleep. Those are the two that that really across the board a lot of research are showing. and so in that case, you know, it can maybe improve performance if you're able to, you know, sleep better and, have less pain. I think, in, in some people, pain is a huge barrier to exercise participation. And so if you're able to experience pain, reduction benefits of cannabis and that helps you exercise, then that's great. It helps to decrease that barrier for some people.

Margaret 00:10:21 Right. And that's that's a pretty important one because a lot of us are dealing with chronic pain of some kind or others. So yeah. And if you don't feel good you're not going to exercise. And then you don't get those benefits again, which can help decrease the pain long term and, and all the rest of it.

Margaret 00:10:34 So yeah, it does become a cycle. Now does cannabis affect endurance athletes and high intensity sport athletes differently?

Dr Whitney Ogle 00:10:47 Great. Another great question. These are all questions that we need to ask in the research. And that that hopefully my little research team is going to start to figure out this semester. but yeah, we find that, across all of the different surveys of people who use cannabis with exercise, name a physical activity between archery and water skiing. Someone's getting high and doing it. So like, it's it's just, you know, people are which is, which is actually kind of interesting because there are some activities kind of, like you said, that are more endurance kind of activities that use totally different, you know, physiological system to be able to, to do compared to weightlifting or, you know, short intensity exercises. So people are, are, you know, using it with all kinds of exercise and we don't know how much that impacts their performance either way.

Margaret 00:11:42 Yeah. So you haven't noticed a big difference yet.

Margaret 00:11:45 Like you said. But that's why the research is needed.

Dr Whitney Ogle 00:11:48 Yes, exactly.

Margaret 00:11:49 I love that, and I love that we're alive in a time where we can be doing this research, because obviously prohibition, you you couldn't even ask these questions about how cannabis affects us while we exercise.

Dr Whitney Ogle 00:11:59 So there's still, you know, there's still barriers to be able to do the research. And so there's, researchers from University of Colorado that have really started to open the door to to being able to do research. They worked with their risk management team and legal and everything to figure out, all right, we can't have people high on campus. We can't have people get, you know, get high on campus. And so they have to either be close enough to campus where they can get high at home and come over to campus, or they bring the lab to the to the participants home and do research outside of their home. one of the interesting opportunities in, in Humboldt itself is that we have consumption lounges. And so I talked to our risk management team and they are okay with me doing research at the cannabis consumption lounges.

Dr Whitney Ogle 00:12:49 I still can't get people high and bring them to campus. you know, so there's there's still barriers, but, we're finding our a little ways around it.

Margaret 00:12:58 Your little loopholes. That's really interesting because I talked to somebody earlier this week about consumption lounges and why they're so important and why we need them. And it looks like this is just another piece of the puzzle to say these these these spaces are important because people need a place to go to consume cannabis and be studied while they're doing it.

Dr Whitney Ogle 00:13:15 So yeah.

Margaret 00:13:16 Yeah, I.

Dr Whitney Ogle 00:13:17 Think there's a lot of cannabis users that are are really excited to be participants in studies. You know, there's there's so many students that come up to me in the middle of the semester and say, oh, hey, if you ever need a participant, I'm happy to to be part of your study. It's like, right. No. All right. Well, and I.

Margaret 00:13:33 Think that also helps destigmatize cannabis as well, because it's showing that there's athletes, you know, whether you're just like a recreational athlete or you're taking it pretty seriously.

Margaret 00:13:43 I mean, it just shows that those those people are also cannabis users. And it's not just that lazy stoner stereotype that we were all led to believe. That's what you are. If you smoke weed.

Dr Whitney Ogle 00:13:54 So exactly. Or professors even, you know. Right. Yeah, yeah. And the research educated person and a regular cannabis user too.

Margaret 00:14:03 Yeah. now, does cannabis play a role in reducing inflammation and aiding and muscle recovery? Post-exercise.

Dr Whitney Ogle 00:14:12 We are still kind of trying to figure that out. In one study, they, they find they found that, can't chronic cannabis users. So not under the influence of cannabis at the time, they actually had more inflammatory biomarkers in their bloodstream than the non cannabis users. So maybe maybe and these are both both groups were highly physically active people. And so you know maybe it improves inflammation. Maybe it's a placebo. there's actually a researcher in, I think, Kentucky, of all places, that has been looking at at CBD, you specifically and, and inflammation and recovery from, high intensity exercise.

Dr Whitney Ogle 00:14:58 I think at this point there's a lot more research. there's a lot more survey research that says that people say that it improves their inflammation. But, we still need to do more research to really back that up. Right.

Margaret 00:15:11 And when you're talking about, like in Kentucky, when they're talking about the CBD specifically, would that be used like consumed by combustion or is it a topical or how are they how are they using that CBD in those instances.

Dr Whitney Ogle 00:15:23 Yeah. And that's that's like there's so many different variables to cannabis obviously. And and so yeah we need to look at kind of all of it. I don't think I've, I don't think I've seen any research so far on topicals and in my, in my little research group that that we've looked at. I'm sure that exists. and I just don't know about it yet or hopefully it exists. but yeah, in the interesting thing with some of the CBD research is that a lot of times people are using it in edible format. And so with the CBD studies that have been been done so far, looking at athletes, sometimes they're using it as, how many milligrams per kilogram of body weight.

Dr Whitney Ogle 00:16:08 And so they're using like specific amounts for each participant. And usually that's like 700mg. There was another. Yeah. And so that's that's usually what the research is showing is that, you know, some of the gains that we see with, with CBD is like pretty high doses of CBD. And then I so I see that at conferences and I think, oh my gosh, like when I go to a dispensary, I'm looking at like ten milligrams.

Margaret 00:16:33 No one's consuming that much usually.

Dr Whitney Ogle 00:16:35 Right. That'd be really.

Margaret 00:16:36 Expensive to

Dr Whitney Ogle 00:16:37 I mean, yeah, 70 boxes of vegetables. Yeah, that's it's crazy. And so, so yeah, then there was another researcher at Northern Colorado University. She was on my podcast a couple of weeks ago, Doctor Laura Stewart, and she, was doing research where people were using maybe even, like 50 milligram doses of CBD. And she was having a hard time publishing it initially because all of the other researchers were like, well, why are you using such a low dose? You know, there are other research that is supporting this is using much higher doses, more like the 700 milligram doses.

Dr Whitney Ogle 00:17:13 And she's like, well, this is what's available to the public. So we need to actually look at what products are available to the public and do research with those products.

Margaret 00:17:22 Right. That's really smart because like you said, there's there's no 700mg CBD edible on the market that I've ever seen. Right?

Dr Whitney Ogle 00:17:29 I wonder if you're making your own.

Margaret 00:17:30 Like a lot of my listeners are making their own edibles, but I highly suspect none of them are that strong per dose.

Dr Whitney Ogle 00:17:37 So Yeah.

Margaret 00:17:39 Yeah. And it's interesting that you said that there hasn't been a lot of research on the topicals, too, because those are so often sold as like remedies for arthritis and muscle pain and just general aches and pains and stuff. And it's I mean, I guess if people are getting relief from it, then it must be doing something.

Dr Whitney Ogle 00:17:55 But you're.

Margaret 00:17:56 Saying there's not necessarily any direct science behind it.

Dr Whitney Ogle 00:18:00 Beyond I've seen in athletic populations yet. I can I could probably do a little Google Scholar search and and see if I'm wrong in that.

Dr Whitney Ogle 00:18:09 see if anyone else has published that more recently. I haven't heard of that. I think sometimes in topicals they have other things in them, like, like that, that kind of minty kind of smell that actually helped that there is research behind that to help to, to decrease pain and your increased pain tolerance. And so, you know, it could be the could be the cannabis that's part of it, but it could also be all the other things that are in the product.

Margaret 00:18:38 Right. Yeah. That. That tigerbalm or the minty.

Dr Whitney Ogle 00:18:41 Yeah. Exactly. Yeah.

Margaret 00:18:43 Yeah. The cooling gels and all that kind of thing.

Dr Whitney Ogle 00:18:45 Uhhuh.

Margaret 00:18:45 Yeah. Now the cognitive effects of cannabis, like do find have you found in your, any of your research that it can affect your focus and motivation for, for participants?

Dr Whitney Ogle 00:18:56 The things that people say that it improves is that people say that it improves their focus and concentration while they're exercising. I think it's probably one of those things that's individual. and like, specific to certain strains, obviously, you know, some products make me really focus.

Dr Whitney Ogle 00:19:15 I can tell that when I'm at the climbing gym and I'm like doing reps of, of certain things versus other times where I'm like laying on the ground for half the time I'm at the climbing gym. And so, so yeah, that's one of the things that people say is helping them with exercise. But, yeah, I think it's probably a little like strain Specific right.

Margaret 00:19:36 Which is which sort of checks out with everything I know about cannabis is it's so.

Dr Whitney Ogle 00:19:41 Like.

Margaret 00:19:41 Personalized like how it affects you is going to be very different from how it affects me. Have you looked at all it like any kind of time of day when people work out? Because for me, I tend to do some weightlifting, I do a little bit of weightlifting, I tend to do it first thing in the morning, and I don't necessarily want to get like really high first thing in the morning.

Dr Whitney Ogle 00:20:00 Yeah. That's a yeah, that's a great question. And I I've kind of done the same thing. That's why I don't go to morning yoga because I enjoy cannabis before yoga.

Dr Whitney Ogle 00:20:10 And so I'm like I don't want to be like hi at 11 a.m.. Right. So so yeah, I think that can definitely impact someone's interest in wanting to get, you know, have a the impact of cannabis before exercise, right?

Margaret 00:20:25 Yeah. Because I guess, I mean, I guess you could use CBD, but you're saying there's not necessarily any direct,

Dr Whitney Ogle 00:20:32 I mean, if, if, if it helps you enjoy exercise or like, you know, decreases your pain or, you know, you found that it works for you. And, then that's great. And so.

Margaret 00:20:43 Yeah, I'll have to experiment with that because I do like to do a little bit of yoga too, but that's more of an afternoon evening thing. So it's a lot easier to be like, yeah, I'm going to consume some cannabis first.

Dr Whitney Ogle 00:20:51 Because I don't.

Margaret 00:20:53 Have like interviews to do or like.

Dr Whitney Ogle 00:20:55 Things like that where I could be on my game. Yeah, yeah, yeah. you know, it's interesting about the, the cannabis use with yoga that I've experienced personally.

Dr Whitney Ogle 00:21:05 Is that so? I, I go to hot yoga. It's an hour and a half. And so obviously I would think that edibles would be a better, source of or like way of consuming cannabis because, you know, last longer. But I found so I, I would, I would take an edible and then I would go for a walk around the neighborhood and smoke a joint. So I was like, you know, hi from the joint. And then during yoga, I would feel the edible come in. And what I noticed was that actually I started feeling less stable and had more of that. That head rush feeling when you stand up too quickly. I had that thing happening when I was using edibles, and I don't have that same experience with smoking. And so I actually kind of I actually stopped using edibles with hot yoga because I didn't like that that feeling. Right.

Margaret 00:21:57 I and I could see that because some of those hot yoga rooms, for those listening that have never done it can be so hot, like maybe the heat.

Margaret 00:22:05 And because I find sometimes the edibles can make me feel pretty warm as well. Yeah. So the heat and the body temperature might be not a great combination for some people. So I'm doing more yoga at home right now, like lately. So I don't really have that problem. I'm trying to get warm up by by doing yoga when I do it, but the one of the things that I always wonder about too, is how athletes, other athletes, manage Cottonmouth, and they're working out because that's something that I deal with. Even though I've been consuming for a long time, I still get some of that cottonmouth. It's not as bad as it used to be, but.

Dr Whitney Ogle 00:22:44 Yeah, right. And so and, you know, we we always need we we could all probably benefit from drinking a lot more water just as humans in general. And so I think, that cottonmouth might actually help athletes drink more water. But, you know, I've, I have no idea that that would be a really interesting study to look at fluid intake in cannabis users, for like, while you're stoned versus when you're sober, right?

Margaret 00:23:13 Yeah.

Margaret 00:23:14 That would be pretty interesting because that's one of the things I don't like about cannabis, one of the few things. But yeah.

Dr Whitney Ogle 00:23:20 Yeah, exactly. Now, you.

Margaret 00:23:21 Touched on it earlier a little bit, but how cannabis impacts sweet or sleep quality and obviously I mean better sleep is better for everybody, athletes or not. So can you talk a little bit about. About sleep quality? Because I have heard occasionally, sometimes that regular cannabis use isn't necessarily good for sleep. I think it was. I don't know if you're familiar with Doctor Matthew Walker. He's that sleep researcher, and I think he mentioned that in his book, and that's not what I wanted to hear. But.

Dr Whitney Ogle 00:23:52 You know, that's the hard part about doing cannabis research is that especially like as, as a cannabis consumer, like I have my own bias, but I feel like the research has been biased in the opposite direction for for far too long. So I'm okay having, you know, my own little bias over here. but yeah, they there's, there was a lot of research to show that, cannabis can improve sleep quality.

Dr Whitney Ogle 00:24:15 Some of those that research has been done using like the, the formulas that, like pharmaceutical cannabis, like, what am I.

Margaret 00:24:27 Like, not actual flower, but like one of the pharmaceutical lab created.

Dr Whitney Ogle 00:24:32 Medicines. Yeah, or like a 1 to 1 ratio. you know, we we still need to do more research in that area, but, one of the things that I don't know if other people have experienced as well, but, it makes your dreams go away. I don't know if you've ever taken it from from cannabis for a while. And then your dreams come back and they're really intense. Yeah. And so I that's that's the one thing that I wonder with, with cannabis and sleep is that, you know, there's probably, I don't know, some negative impact of not sleeping. Who knows though.

Margaret 00:25:06 Yeah. It's interesting because it's funny that you mention that because a couple times in the last couple of weeks, like I consume cannabis most evenings, but I didn't there was a couple of occasions where I didn't.

Margaret 00:25:16 I definitely had like really vivid dreams, waking up like what just happened. But I also have like an aura ring so I can track my sleep. And I would say generally, overall like I can't, I don't see a correlation between my cannabis consumption and my sleep quality. A lot of it has more to do with, like what time I went to bed and that kind of thing.

Dr Whitney Ogle 00:25:39 Yeah. Interesting. Yeah. You know what? There was, there is a study that that a couple of, colleagues and I had in mind for years, and we kept on submitting grants to get it, approved so that we could buy equipment. But I wanted to get Fitbits for a group of people and actually look at their, you know, heart rate and their sleep quality, objective data from a Fitbit, and then also that subjective data from just asking people, how did you sleep last night? we never ended up getting it, funded, even though we submitted it so many times. So, we're kind of letting that one go right now.

Dr Whitney Ogle 00:26:17 Hopefully the lab will pick that up, but, yeah, I think, you know, there's enough, consumer wearable technology that it would actually be kind of nice to to be able to look at that yourself as a cannabis consumer. If you have a Fitbit or an aura ring, then you know, see how it does actually impact your sleep. If you think that it impacts your sleep, then try a couple of nights off and see if it actually does, you know, impact your sleep in different ways, right?

Margaret 00:26:46 Because some of the data that I have seen is like when I haven't consumed cannabis, sometimes I do sleep worse and I don't know if it's I feel more disturbed or whatever the dreams may be, I don't know. I mean, I'm not a scientist by any means, but it is really interesting. Maybe you need to reach out to your ring and be like, help fund or study because.

Dr Whitney Ogle 00:27:03 I know it is super.

Margaret 00:27:04 Interesting to.

Dr Whitney Ogle 00:27:05 Find that out. Yeah, yeah, yeah.

Dr Whitney Ogle 00:27:08 there's a great company called Oh my gosh, why am I not thinking about right now? tetra gram. Sorry, it's called tetra gram. It's an app where you can, report your cannabis experiences and then so you can, you can put together kind of a, a list of, you know what? What cannabis product are you using different details about that product. And then you can say, all right, I'm using it for this purpose. And then it pings you back a little while later and says, all right, you know, how did it actually go for you? So you can actually start to figure out what some of those individual differences and, and then potentially doing research where we can, we can use all that data that they're gathering from individual consumers to be able to find out. Yeah. Is cannabis actually helping with people's sleep if they're intending to use it to help with sleep. Is it is it matching expectations.

Margaret 00:28:03 Right. That's really interesting. So I'll make sure I link to that in the show notes.

Margaret 00:28:06 Because if somebody wants to make their own contribution to some of the research because are you saying that the Ted diagram is collecting it for research specifically?

Dr Whitney Ogle 00:28:14 and I think that's like one of their goals. I'm not sure where they're at right now with it, but, yeah. Otha Smith the third, he was the creator of Tetra Graham. He was in my on my podcast a couple of months ago and so yeah, highly recommend checking him out. He's just a great person and it's a it's a nice app to figure out what actually works for you. And then you can bring that to your doctor's office if you are using it for medical purposes as well. So that's awesome.

Margaret 00:28:42 I'll be sure to link to that interview as well so people can learn more about that, because that sounds really interesting. And obviously, again, cannabis is so nuanced and it affects us all so differently. It really is a bit about, you know, putting together the puzzle pieces to figure out what is best for you.

Dr Whitney Ogle 00:28:56 So absolutely.

Dr Whitney Ogle 00:28:57 Yeah.

Margaret 00:28:58 Now obviously we're both like converts to cannabis use, as are the listeners of this podcast, but are there any risks that that people should be aware of before they're using cannabis for exercise?

Dr Whitney Ogle 00:29:10 You know, kind of the same, advice that you give anyone start low, go slow. And so, you know, if you are not currently a cannabis user and you think that it's going to help you exercise You know, maybe try try it first without, you know, with exercise or pair it with, with some something kind of like low intensity, like going for a walk and, you know, in a place that you know well and doing exercises that are familiar to you, don't, you know, go out and, I don't know, try something really risky when you're right, trying to use cannabis and exercise for the first time. Right? but yeah, it's, you'll, you'll have, some strains that will work for you and some strains that won't. And so if people are currently cannabis users and they're not pairing it with exercise currently, then I think that's kind of an easier transition where you can, you know, try doing some of the exercise that you already do while you're also stone doing it.

Dr Whitney Ogle 00:30:14 or maybe it's like, yeah, I've, I've always paired this with, you know, watching TV or, you know, something else or gardening. And so now try going for a walk and, you know, try doing something else. I had someone on my podcast, one of my first podcasts with my friend Danny, who was not a runner. He was a cannabis user, and he, out of nowhere, just started to try to run while he was high. And within a month he was running. He was running his first half marathon. And so he was just like one of those personality types. I think that that kind of, you know, was geared towards that. But, it can be a, a gateway to exercise for some people. And in that.

Margaret 00:31:00 Particular instance, what was it about getting high before he exercised, before he was running in particular, that gave him that extra onus, I guess, to do half marathons because for most people that that's like a lot of training.

Dr Whitney Ogle 00:31:13 Right? Right. I think that's like one of those things like personality type like, you know, he's just like that specific I, I, I smoke and you know, and run and I've never run a half marathon and I've done that for years. So I think that's just kind of his personality. But, you know, a lot of us have had bad experiences with running growing up. You know, running was that form of, if you did something wrong in practice, then your coach would say, all right, everyone has to go run a lap because, you know, this person didn't do the right thing. And so it's been punishment for a long for a long time for a lot of people. And so to to have to change your experience with running, to change your experience with exercise, to have it be a better experience for you, I think is really powerful and exciting.

Margaret 00:32:01 Yeah, yeah, that is exciting. And I like the advice to go low and go slow because that applies like all over the place and everywhere when it comes to cannabis and trying.

Dr Whitney Ogle 00:32:09 To exercise, you know, do not go, he did not go low or slow. He. Right. He went all in. Yeah.

Margaret 00:32:17 But he was already a runner too, right? Like he wasn't like, I'm just going to start, you know, smoking weed and powerlifting or something like that.

Dr Whitney Ogle 00:32:23 Like, right, right. Yeah.

Margaret 00:32:25 Yeah, yeah. Now, I mean, we've talked already a bit about how athletes can determine dosage and timing to optimize for their workouts. Do you have any other advice around that? Because, I mean, we already know that it's very specific to each individual.

Dr Whitney Ogle 00:32:38 But yeah. And that's you know, one of the things with the research and all the different variables of cannabis that we need to look at in more detail, obviously there's a time component. You know, you said, you know, what's the timing. And so if you if you smoke, that's the, you know, you'll feel that immediately. And so that can help you, you know, go at that.

Dr Whitney Ogle 00:32:59 That's kind of my process is that I smoke a joint while I'm, you know, walking out to the trail to go for my run. and then I usually never run long enough to, to get the effects of a, of an edible. And so I would have to time an edible use, like I'd have to take an edible, do other things around the house and then leave for my run. And so that has just been kind of hard for me to wrap my head around how to time that. Well, and that's some of the things that we need to think about with the research as well, is that, you know, smoking is it's that's an easier study to do because you can just have someone do a test sober, come back in 10 to 15 minutes, you know, Max, and and do the test again so you can get a subject in and out in like half an hour, you know, versus an edible where, you know, you have them take the edible. You could actually probably test them while they're like after they've taken the edible initially and then, you know, an hour later.

Dr Whitney Ogle 00:34:05 And so it's just more time consuming to do edibles research. people have done some edibles research with, people using it on their own time scale. And so you don't have to have them actually come into the lab. But, yeah, it's one of those those tricky things that we have to think about with research and how how quickly it sets in for every individual.

Margaret 00:34:29 Right. Because, yeah, with edibles, there's always a little bit of planning involved. There's no way around that really. But have you have you done seen any research or done any research yourself around tinctures or beverages as far as consumption goes?

Dr Whitney Ogle 00:34:42 Not yet. Not yet. And it seems like that's that's kind of up and coming. Right. beverages in particular.

Margaret 00:34:49 Yeah.

Dr Whitney Ogle 00:34:49 Yeah, yeah. there is a brand called Off Field. I did an episode with Tony for. He's the, CEO and founder of Off Field. And they make, drinks that are specifically for cannabis drinks that are specifically made for athletes. Oh, cool. And, and so, yeah, I, I reached out to them because I, I just kept on getting the ads because, you know, cannabis and exercise.

Dr Whitney Ogle 00:35:15 I just kept getting their ads and, yeah, it was it was interesting. And so I, I tried it and they're, I don't know what they're doing over there, but that, that product makes me like amped. And I'm, I'm like, running as fast as I as I really. Yeah. I feel like powerful with that. So yeah, I'm not sure exactly what's going on with their product and their formulation, but that's a product that I've seen out there with, that's an edible drink specifically for athletes, and there's no.

Margaret 00:35:46 Caffeine in it or anything like that.

Dr Whitney Ogle 00:35:48 I don't think so. Maybe it's, it's like l-theanine and, maybe, maybe there is something else in there. I asked the nutrition professor who, has her office is right next to mine. I'm like, what is this? Like, look at the label. What? What is happening? Why am I so amped when I'm using this? And so, yeah, I have no idea, but but check it out.

Dr Whitney Ogle 00:36:11 It's.

Margaret 00:36:11 Yeah, I will. That's super interesting because the beverages are becoming increasingly popular as far in the recreational market in particular, but the onset times a lot faster than a typical edible, which is another reason why people really like them. Like you can have an onset time of, say, 15 to 20 minutes maybe, as opposed to the hour. And yeah, that's one reason why people like them. And also they typically don't have the longer duration, like edibles can be like hours and hours. And a drink might be a couple instead.

Dr Whitney Ogle 00:36:43 Saying, okay, yeah. Because, actually it's it's funny that you like, you reached out to me at like just the right time because I was a, I was a judge for my first cannabis competition, this past month, for Canna Fest. It's, in Humboldt County, and I was, picked as one of the judges for the consumables. And, there were two products there that were that were drinks. And I found it so interesting because I'm always looking at the packaging and and like, how, like, what are people saying about the product? and like knowing that there's not a lot of research behind a lot of these things.

Dr Whitney Ogle 00:37:21 And so, yeah, with the, with the drinks, it said like nanotechnology and increasing. yeah. So like a 15 minute, window, like fast acting and, I didn't feel it specifically or particularly for myself, but, but yeah, I think it did actually win one of the categories.

Margaret 00:37:41 Right? That nanoemulsion is a whole thing in the cannabis drink world. And obviously, whether you're going to feel it or not, it's going to depend on the potency of that particular beverage as well. And I mean, in Canada, they're all capped at ten milligrams. So for some people, that's not going to do anything anyway. But for others that's plenty. And they could drink, you know, a lot less than that too. So it's it's very interesting. The whole cannabis beverages world, there's a lot of new things coming out. It's pretty exciting, actually. So. Oh my God. Yeah.

Dr Whitney Ogle 00:38:12 Very cool. All right, well, then, now you're giving me more ideas for research.

Margaret 00:38:16 That's awesome, I love that. So now I mean. Speaking of trends, have you seen any trends in professional athletes because you mentioned professional athletes, I think earlier just how they're incorporating cannabis into their training regimes, because if cannabis can sort of be used in the professional realm, then it's better for everybody because that means it's becoming more mainstream.

Dr Whitney Ogle 00:38:39 Yeah. And I think that I've seen a little bit of both. some people are saying that they use CBD to help with recovery or they're they're using it with, with training themselves like, itself. like going out for golf, like there's a couple of golfers that have come out to be, cannabis users. And I think depending on the sport, there's kind of a little bit of, you know, golfers tend to not be, you know, that stoner archetype. And so they might not lean into the THC kind of world, but, you know, there's also other athletes that have their own cannabis brands. And so I think they're some of them are going kind of in the THC realm.

Dr Whitney Ogle 00:39:27 one of the most interesting examples is, Ross Rebel rebel. He was a Canadian o Canadian border.

Margaret 00:39:37 I remember that that has yeah.

Dr Whitney Ogle 00:39:40 He now has, his own cannabis brand. and so he's now selling flour and they're great names, you know, snowboarding specific names, right?

Margaret 00:39:49 Yeah. And it's funny that you mentioned the golfers too, but that sort of lazy stoner stereotype, because from what I've read about professional golfers in particular, is they are the furthest thing. Most of them are the furthest thing from lazy. Like, yeah, we do a lot of training and I guess you have to in order to compete at that level. And the courses that they're playing to, like they're pretty vigorous. They're not like the courses I've played. Which is.

Dr Whitney Ogle 00:40:13 Right. Well, yeah. And then, you know, speaking of like, vigorous exercise, there's hockey players and and football players and basketball players like that's high intensity. You have to have a good, you know, physiology to be exactly to be able to do that.

Dr Whitney Ogle 00:40:30 And so, yeah, I'm, I'm just really hopeful in general that more athletes are talking about it, in general, and then that more sport organizations are starting to change their policies around it. That's the big one, you know. Yeah. NFL changed their policies. Major League Baseball, and triathlon has has sponsorships with CBD companies. I guess I, I just heard recently that University of Southern California is doing a, a collaboration with cookies. So, like, somehow, you know, there's this intersection of, of sport and cannabis and policies are changing in the United States. Yeah.

Margaret 00:41:14 Yeah. And I think I did read a while ago that the NFL was doing co-sponsoring a study with the university in Saskatchewan. I think it was. Yeah. And did they not also recently changed their their policies, like you mentioned, about whether athletes or not could consume, which is.

Dr Whitney Ogle 00:41:29 Yeah. And so right now it's if they they're, they're no longer either no longer testing for it or no longer, finding the athletes if they are found with cannabis, it's more just a, a harm reduction kind of standpoint.

Dr Whitney Ogle 00:41:45 Now where if they notice that an athlete is, is really starting to, you know, not show up to practice or like, you know, their performance starts to, to change or their, you know, behavior starts to change, then they'll do more education. But right now, the there's a greater focus on education rather than getting people in trouble. Right? Yeah. Liz Thompson from, She's a graduate student at University of Saskatchewan. She was on, the last episode of my podcast about, why is cannabis still on the list of prohibited substances in the world Anti-Doping agency? Right. So why why can't, why are Olympians still not allowed to use cannabis? Right.

Margaret 00:42:29 And I yeah. Do you answer that question?

Margaret 00:42:33 Yes.

Margaret 00:42:34 Because I'm going to have to go and listen to that because I find that interesting and, problematic, I guess, but I don't maybe there's a reason that I'm not aware of. So.

Dr Whitney Ogle 00:42:44 Yeah. Yeah, yeah, it's, Yeah. The the three criteria is that, a substance is on the list if it meets two of three criteria, one if it has the potential to improve and an athlete's performance, two if it has the capacity to harm an athlete, and three, if it violates the spirit of sport.

Dr Whitney Ogle 00:43:03 And so, so, yeah, there's kind of tenuous grounds for each of those categories. And so at this time, they're saying that there's not enough research to take it off of the list. But, yeah, you'll hear, you'll hear in the in the episode, I'll, it's myself, Johnny Lozano, a, postdoc at University of Colorado Boulder and, and Liz Thompson talk about, like, why we think all three are problematic. And, what we need to do before the LA 2028 Olympics, right, where cannabis is going to be available and legal to people who've maybe never had access to it.

Margaret 00:43:45 Because that's the that's the one thing to, I guess. I guess it depends on where you live. But I mean, all those things you said are kind of dubious, especially if you're in the cannabis community. But unlike other performance enhancing drugs, I feel like cannabis is one of the more easily accessible substances out there. And so that means a lot of athletes can use it. But I guess you are right that there are some places where it's not easily accessible, and I tend to forget that because I'm in Canada, right? And it's available everywhere, and I'm very fortunate and I take that for granted sometimes.

Margaret 00:44:13 But yeah.

Dr Whitney Ogle 00:44:14 You know, I was just in Sweden this summer and I, I, I still need to edit this podcast, but, as I'm sure you understand that. yeah. So I'm still editing that podcast episode, but I was talking to a bunch of Swedish people about, you know, what their thoughts are about cannabis and sport and should it be illegal in sport? And, what they've told me is that they say, you know, Sweden's going to be the last country in the EU that in Europe that's going to legalize cannabis. They're like.

Margaret 00:44:44 Really?

Dr Whitney Ogle 00:44:45 There's one store in in Stockholm and it's kind of on the outskirts of Stockholm where you can buy, cannabis. And and so this, this interview is with the, the people who have that one pot shop in Stockholm and, and so, yeah, they, they're like, there's so much education that needs to happen because, they're just. People just don't even know that it could have benefits to people. And they just kind of think like, why are we why would we, you know, use this drug, you know, their, their major drinking society.

Dr Whitney Ogle 00:45:20 And so, you know, I think that they could probably benefit from maybe switching,

Margaret 00:45:26 Yeah, reduce some of that inflammation caused by alcohol maybe.

Margaret 00:45:29 Right. Exactly. Yeah. so.

Dr Whitney Ogle 00:45:31 Yeah, I'll, I'll have that episode out shortly as.

Margaret 00:45:33 Well. Okay.

Margaret 00:45:34 That's it's interesting too. You bring that up too, because I was going to ask next about how you see the future of cannabis in the sports world evolving.

Dr Whitney Ogle 00:45:42 Yeah. I think that again, like all these athletes that are starting to to talk about it a lot more and and start having brands, you know, the sport, the policies are changing. And so like, there was just the recently changes for NCAA athletes. And so, you know, I'm, I'm really hopeful that there's going to be this continued trend towards, normalisation of cannabis with athletes. And, one of the things that I've talked with people about is, I don't know if you've been to any, any like fun runs, where there is like a beer garden at the end of the run or something.

Dr Whitney Ogle 00:46:22 And, so I would like to have a place where people are running, but, you know, it's a celebration of consuming cannabis rather than drinking beer at the end of it.

Margaret 00:46:32 Right? You could have cannabis beverages too.

Margaret 00:46:34 Instead, which I think, well, oh my gosh, that's.

Dr Whitney Ogle 00:46:37 Right. Oh my gosh. Okay. Well yeah it does happen.

Margaret 00:46:40 Yeah I think that would make it a real fun run in my opinion. And you could have people smoking before too or consuming before if they wanted.

Margaret 00:46:46 Or during, you.

Dr Whitney Ogle 00:46:47 Know, running.

Margaret 00:46:47 Whatever you want.

Dr Whitney Ogle 00:46:48 So I can get you.

Margaret 00:46:49 Yeah. I mean you're.

Margaret 00:46:50 Outside so you're outside. Yeah.

Margaret 00:46:52 Exactly. Yeah, I love that.

Dr Whitney Ogle 00:46:53 Now I'm living in Humboldt for too long. Yeah.

Margaret 00:46:57 That's okay, because I think we need that kind of positive exuberance about this whole thing out there in the rest of the world, because a lot of people still have that stigma attached to cannabis, which I always surprises me. But it shouldn't because, again, I'm in a place and I'm talking to people like you who are, you know, very well versed on the benefits of cannabis and how it can help so many people.

Margaret 00:47:18 And even if you don't want to consume cannabis per se, you can use it in so many ways. Like maybe you just find it helps your achy knees with a topical right? Like you can still benefit from cannabis that way without getting high. So.

Margaret 00:47:31 Exactly. Yeah yeah yeah, yeah.

Dr Whitney Ogle 00:47:33 It's been helpful to, you know, talk to my Midwestern parents who are very anti, cannabis, who were very anti cannabis until I started talking to them about it in a scientific way and showing that there's actually credibility behind some of the things that I'm saying. And so, they've slowly started to become a little bit more accepting of it. my dad is one of those people who has Really high sensitivity to cannabis. And so you know he's he's not going to smoke but he'll try edibles. which is I think common with older adults in general is that people in the older population are more likely to use edible products than than younger populations. and I'm sure that's probably changing, especially with all these drinks that you're talking about.

Dr Whitney Ogle 00:48:22 Oh my gosh, I'm so excited. Yeah. and, but yeah, like, he he'll find products that are like, you know, 25 to 1 CBD to THC. And he's still, like, feeling.

Margaret 00:48:36 Oh, yeah.

Dr Whitney Ogle 00:48:38 He's super sensitive to cannabis for some reason.

Margaret 00:48:41 I mean.

Margaret 00:48:42 That's I've met tons of people who could smoke a ton, but then they're super sensitive in other ways or vice versa. It's just right back to that individual, your individual biology at the end of the day. Because, you know, I know people that would eat one milligram of, of THC in an edible and these are experienced cannabis users and they're like, that's enough for me. And then I've met people who are like, I could eat 600mg and be like, go about my day like nothing happens. So yeah, yeah, it really runs the gamut. But I want to be mindful of your time. I just have a couple more questions left for you. And this one's sort of switching gears a little bit, but what would surprise people about you?

Dr Whitney Ogle 00:49:21 Oh,

Margaret 00:49:24 I don't know if.

Dr Whitney Ogle 00:49:25 If, being a cannabis consumer would surprise anyone anymore.

Margaret 00:49:30 Not anymore.

Dr Whitney Ogle 00:49:31 but, but yeah, that was something that I kind of had was, like, hidden about me that I wouldn't necessarily say it. definitely not. like, just to the, to the right people. I would kind of feel people out and, and, you know, see who it was safe to tell that I was a regular cannabis user. But yeah, I'm a I'm a daily cannabis consumer.

Margaret 00:49:52 That's awesome. And so what was it that sort of made you comfortable with coming out of the cannabis closet, as it were.

Dr Whitney Ogle 00:49:59 I think living in Humboldt honestly has really helped that. I there's a research group on campus called the Humboldt Institute for Interdisciplinary Marijuana Research. And so in that group, there's professors from all across campus that are doing different types of cannabis research. And so some are doing it related to, sociology or business or, you know, Native American history. So it's it's like all of these different aspects of cannabis across campus.

Dr Whitney Ogle 00:50:29 And I found even with that, I was still not letting them know that I consumed. And, and I was kind of surprised that no one was talking about, like, let's meet up for a joint after a meeting rather than like, oh, let's meet up for drinks. So I was kind of surprised, with that. But I think, having more friends that are in the cannabis industry here, you know, growers who are growing the the best we in the country in my opinion. you know, having friends that are, you know, that that leave in the middle of dinner, like after appetizers to go smoke a joint outside and then come back for dinner. Like the fact that that is normalized here, I think has really helped me, you know, live into that, and accept that kind of stoner, characteristic, right?

Margaret 00:51:23 Yeah.

Margaret 00:51:23 I love that because it can take a lot for somebody to come out and start telling people, especially if you're uncertain of how they're going to react, because your colleagues aside, you just don't know if that friend of yours is going to judge you for it or think less of you, because some of that propaganda that we have been fed over the last, however 100 years or whatever, just is so damn tenacious and it's annoying.

Margaret 00:51:44 Yeah.

Dr Whitney Ogle 00:51:44 And and that's where I feel like I need to say it out loud now, because I have earned three graduate degrees, and being a daily cannabis user like you can still accomplish things. And I think that because I've shown my ability to to be a productive member of society and do research and teach and, you know, get all these degrees that it is possible to still be a good member of society and, you know, and be a regular cannabis user.

Margaret 00:52:14 Exactly. And I see it time and time again. So, Doctor Whitney Ogle, where can people find you?

Dr Whitney Ogle 00:52:20 You can find me at exploring cannabis and exercise and Instagram. and the podcast is called Exploring Cannabis and Exercise. You can find it wherever you listen to podcasts. I do respond to messages on, DMs on Instagram. for some reason, that that works better than email for me. but I do have an email, cannabis and exercise at gmail.com. yeah. I'm always excited to meet other people who are using cannabis with exercise.

Dr Whitney Ogle 00:52:51 Other fellow researchers. we I have a group of researchers from all over the world who are doing different types of cannabis and exercise research, and we meet a couple of times a year to just talk about what's what is everyone up to and how can we collaborate. And so if there's any researchers out there, then, you know, let me know and I'd be happy to welcome you to the group.

Margaret 00:53:13 That's awesome. Well, thank you so much for your time today. I'm really excited that we had this conversation, and I think you're doing really important work in the world. So thank you for that too.

Margaret 00:53:21 Thank you so.

Dr Whitney Ogle 00:53:22 Much. You as well. Yeah, I mean I'm now I'm really excited to look into drinks now. Oh my.

Margaret 00:53:26 Gosh I thought I could.

Margaret 00:53:27 Introduce you to those because yeah yeah.

Margaret 00:53:30 Perfect.

Margaret 00:53:32 Will you be incorporating cannabis into your exercise routine after listening to this episode? Do you already? Let me know and I'll share the answers. In an upcoming episode, you'll find the links to Whitney's podcast and website in the show notes, and consider sharing this episode with one friend right now who would find this topic useful.

Margaret 00:53:50 Until next week, my friends. I'm your host, Margaret and stay high.